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This is what we need to do... - sharkfish - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
The final word on the next step for IT:

Buy a lobbyist.

I was reading a thread on netslaves.com that talked about sex at work. Someone posted a flippant response about how men and women join protest groups to get laid; people pay lobbyists to make change.

We should designate a group and take donations and find a lobbyist familiar with labor/offshoring/technology issues.

If we don't do this, we are dead.

 
Re: This is what we need to do... - Giovanni008 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
There are lobbyists at ACM and IEEE. How much money
or time they have I don't know.
 
Re: This is what we need to do... - fedupashell - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
IEEE is listed on the zazona site as a suporter of H1B. Thy will not see one thin dime of my money to lobby with. They should be added to the list of terrorist organizations.

http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/Skunks.htm

 
Another anti action we can take - rtmark - sharkfish - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
http://rtmark.com/f/get/funds/labor.html

Check out the posting (scroll down a bit) from an anti-H1B poster.

Read www.rtmark.com to understand what this anti-corporate site is about. They set up 'funds' for anti-corporate projects that pay insiders to do appropriate screw ups to put corporations off (replace the boot up screen on computers with anti-Microsoft message, for example) and catch media attention.

Interesting. I'd like to hear what you guys think of this approach.

 
Leftist Right-Wingers On This Board - carlgt1 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
That's an interesting site.

I also have a question -- when do the right-wing hypocrites on this board; who cry for protectionism, more welfare & unemployment payments, etc; start admit to being "leftist?" ;-)

It seems that many on this board are only "left-wing" when it comes to their own greedy little needs; not anyone elses!

 
Re: Another anti action we can take - rtmark - sharkfish - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
I like this idea from rtmark.com:

"Program a computer game designed to prepare the user to work in a fast-food restaurant. Distribute it free of charge to American public schools. The crowning achievement would be to have the game endorsed and distributed by one of the major fast-food chains. Publicize."

 
Re: Leftist Right-Wingers On This Board - sharkfish - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
"It seems that many on this board are only "left-wing" when it comes to their own greedy little needs; not anyone elses!"

I agree with you that many unemployed ITers are now only feeling sorry about the current trends because it effects them.

I appreciate you shouting to the wind.

But you are alienating people and behaving like a troll.

State your case in your own thread and argue it there.

 
Re: Leftist Right-Wingers On This Board - carlgt1 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
I'm "alienating" people? These right-wing cry-babies have only cared about themselves for ages. They didn't care about their careers being watered down by H1B or their 401K's full of Enron stocks before.

I was Cassandra preaching true prophecies for ages, yet these hypocrites STILL blather the same Limbaugh-esque tripe even as they whine for protectionism and against globalization etc. It's these morons who are "alienating" themselves from reality!

Their leaders have left them high and dry yet they can still whine about "evil liberals."

 
Re: Leftist Right-Wingers On This Board - frustrated_with_IT - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
"It seems that many on this board are only "left-wing" when it comes to their own greedy little needs; not anyone elses!"

How greedy and selfish for anyone to collect unemployment when they can't find a new job and have to try to keep a roof over their family's heads and food in their mouths. Anyone who collects unemployment must surely be a leftist, liberal, socialist/commie seeking to ruin the way of life for corporations and republicans. It just scares the hell out of me to think that our politicians and corporations are under such threat. We should avoid any protectionist thoughts,gladly and unselfishly give away our jobs.
Come on people we need to think about the greater good of mankind as we the powerless are the only ones in a position to do so.

 
Re: Carlgt1 - frustrated_with_IT - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
I also have a question -- when do the right-wing hypocrites on this board; who cry for protectionism, more welfare & unemployment payments, etc; start admit to being "leftist?" ;-)

When the right wing pro-corporate abuse, anti-constitutional rights, critics of free speach admit to being Fascist admirers of Nazi Germany.

 
Re: tax experts - sharkfish - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
since this is the 'off on a tangent' thread, I have a question about actions we can take as consumers.

why not NOT pay taxes?

http://www.ask.bm/template/devNewstemplatedetail.asp?ItemID=134&Lang=EN

Anybody know how to do this properly?

 
Re: tax experts - sharkfish - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
http://www.ycsi.net/users/reversespins/taxdodge.html

Stanley Works evading taxes. I want to do that! Can't beat'em, join'em!

 
Bush signed tax dodge for himself - sharkfish - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2167602.stm

Note that Stanley Works decided not to move to Barbados after pressure from Congress. But this is interesting:

"In 1989 Harken Energy - the company on which President Bush made an $850,000 killing by selling stock in a way that attracted the attention of the Securities and Exchange Commission - set up an offshore unit to shield profits from a drilling project off Bahrain in the Persian Gulf.

Minutes show Mr Bush signed off on the plan - having opposed it initially not for the tax dodge, but for reasons of cost. "


Looks like daddy Bush isn't averse to bilking Americans.

 
Death and Taxes/Have too - holyfriolies - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
From Google, type in not paying taxes

There are several links as the one below.

However, I could swear I read or saw something about people not paying there taxes, and getting away with it, it was on 60 minutes not to long ago... I think......

http://www.ustreas.gov/irs/ci/tax_fraud/2002hearings/ir2001_73.doc

 
Re: Leftist Right-Wingers On This Board - pcsupport10yrs - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
Who is the left-wing whacko here, all I see are faux-Libertarians and right-wing morons who are clamoring for protectionism, more welfare & unemployment benefits, corporate regulation for H1B & offshoring, etc, etc. You all are sounding pretty leftist to me, except I'm honest enough to admit it while you hide behind dittohead notions that have failed you (and you don't have the cojones to admit it).

Carl do you have any solutions?? Can you come up with something besides dittohead if you are so noble and justified in your causes? Just because someone may believe
in a strong national defense or certain policies you make it black or white left or right? Come off your high horse
and have a drink. P.S. enjoy your time overseas when it gets ugly. Technology changes as much as the world does and some of us have to figure a way to move on. Enjoy the ride
because the bus will come for you too.

 
Hey Frustrated - holyfriolies - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
You are now in Fla right, Tampa ????
Didn't you say you had Certs i.e CCNA.

How do you keep your skills sharp, Own a couple Routers ???

I finished the Network+ got the Cert.
Finishing up on the CCNA, I finish next week and start the "Test King" cram. I don't know how I'm going to remember all this stuff.....!!!!
And for the life of me cannot see how a bootcamp for CCNA would work....

I know, I know, all this stuff won't help me currently but its all the Unemployment office would Pay for, its free training to me.

Drop me a line or Yahoo address, I'll check if I still have one.

What part of Tampa did you decide to live in, I'm originally from Tampa.. It Used to be one @#$#%#@ of a Party town.
Plus all kinds of crime. Lots of crime !!!

 
Re: Carl, what's up man? - TelPhilly - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
Carl, why all the anger at us. A lot of us are going to school, some of us are talking to the press, passing e-mails with politicians. A few of us are working our own businesses, some working at Home Depot. We're tryin' man. Come on buddy, the Eagles won. Tell us you don't like Bush (and why) tell us you don't like Gore (and why) but don't just up and call us bone heads. We've all been burnt by capitalism, but we're not communists.
Here's a thought: Tell us of some good careers we can pursue or an insight to a hot business idea. Yeah, that's the ticket, what's the next big thing: Imported Indian food:)
 
Morons alienating from reality - Java_Good_COBOL_Bad - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
<I'm "alienating" people? These right-wing cry-babies [blah blah blah] yet these hypocrites [blah blah] Limbaugh-esque [blah blah] It's these morons who are "alienating" themselves from reality!>

Even the people who agree with you can't stand to listen to you. Republicans are hypocrites and morons who are alienating themselves from reality?!? What the hell are you talking about?

<<Carl do you have any solutions?? Can you come up with something besides dittohead?>>
<<Tell us you don't like Bush (and why) tell us you don't like Gore (and why) but don't just up and call us bone heads.>>

I second that emotion. You don't seem to have any ideas. All you do is call people names.

 
Re: Hey Frustrated - frustrated_with_IT - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
I have many certs but Cisco isn't one of them. MCSE,MCP+I, CNE, CNA, CET. I'll never bother to get another one either, employers want to pay MCSE's with experience $35K here if you can even get an interview! I too went to "training classes" that the UE office paid for. The school didn't give the type of training to pass these tests. Better than nothing but about 75% of the material on the tests was never covered in class and it takes weeks of study to pass the tougher ones, I would be none too happy if I had paid for that. The classes lasted for 4 and 1/2 months and to be honest, I went to a bootcamp in '99 for the first version of MCSE(NT) that lasted for 9 days and prepared you 100% to pass all tests and I understood the subject better too!
I live in the coastal beach area of Tampa Bay in a place called Tarpon Springs, and it suprised me to learn that Tampa has the 9th highest crime rate among US cities while Miami is 20th. I stay out of the city of Tampa, the gulf coast beach area is newer, more upscale and safer. I could be in Hawii and be miserable too because I wouldn't be happy anywhere when chronically unemployed.
There are no jobs here either, many letters by readers in the Tampa Tribune today regarding the loss of area tech jobs.
 
Re: Hey Frustrated - sharkfish - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
"I stay out of the city of Tampa, the gulf coast beach area is newer, more upscale and safer. I could be in Hawii and be miserable too because I wouldn't be happy anywhere when chronically unemployed.
There are no jobs here either, many letters by readers in the Tampa Tribune today regarding the loss of area tech jobs. "

This is a good letter from the Tampa Tribune. I haven't seen ANY yet in the Chicago Tribune, my major rag. I love the internet.

http://www.tampatrib.com/News/MGAFAH2QO9D.html

 
Re: Hey Frustrated - ZETM99 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
You can count California out too.

http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-fi-tech12dec12001437,0,5300184.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dtechnology

 
Reds... - dryfly - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
carlgt wrote:

<<I also have a question -- when do the right-wing hypocrites on this board; who cry for protectionism, more welfare & unemployment payments, etc; start admit to being "leftist?" ;-)>>

Woody Guthrie - the folk singer who wrote 'This land is your land' - was accused of being a communist (didn't pull punches back then with soft rhetoric like 'liberal').

He replied

"I am not a communist. But then I have never been out of the 'red' either..."

dry fly

 
Right-Wing Hypocrisy - carlgt1 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
It's really quite simple -- you guys have whined about quotas, unions, welfare, etc; until it hits your white-collar butts then all of a sudden you are clamoring for protectionism, welfare, unemployment compensation, etc, etc. It wouldn't be so bad if you didn't give up your socially bankrupt Libertarian pipedreams or whatever; or realize that the "small gov't" Repubs never really did do "small gov't" and never really did care about the middle class, etc.
 
Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy - sharkfish - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
I have to agree carlgt.

I also should add that a lot of folks blame minorities for their plight, too.

Now that they are in a similar situation, this is an 'exception'.

 
Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy - sharkfish - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
Anybody who supported Reagan needs his ass kicked.
 
Re: Carl, what's up man? - carlgt1 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
well, everyone has their own things to deal with. I am finishing up a contract with nothing in sight but two positions I finagled at good UK universities for US $45-$50K. I'm fortunate enough to have a suitably overeducated and high-profile project background that enables me to work overseas; so I will get to see America implode from across the pond.

The time to get really up in arms about H1B was 10 years ago. About the best advice I can offer now is save your money and go to school in India. Why pay the high US fees ($40K+) when an Indian who paid US $1000 total for college or Oracle training is going to get the job?

Do you guys honestly think that after years of high-paid lobbying from Microsoft, Cisco, IBM, Intel et al that a bunch of angry unemployed geeks can come along and change things? I wish you luck but my fight in the US is over and "God Save the Queen" is all I care about these days.

 
Re: Carl, what's up man? - carlgt1 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
I don't really have "anger" at you guys; I just find this "too little, too late" mentality of the anti-H1B/offshoring crowd coupled with the dittoheads here desparately clinging onto their right-wing myths (while also demanding welfare, unemployment, corporations to care about Americans, etc, etc) hilarious. I mean, you guys have already lost the battle which is why I made the comparison that American IT people are like the Palestinians complaining about a war they lost 30 years ago.

I've been speaking out against this H1B/NAFTA crap for 8 years and pretty much nobody cared in IT since they thought the gravy train of the 90's was unlimited. The few (percentage-wise) who have been predicting this were basically Cassandra screeching out truthful predictions that everyone conveniently ignored.

As far as "what to do" -- I would suggest a career change into something else unless you're satisfied with remaining in a stagnant field where the salaries will remain artificially low for probably our lifetimes. Unless you think there's some way to make an AMA or ABA style union for computer geeks that will have $100 million of donations to pay off high-powered lobbyists, you may as well stick a fork in it.

If you really want to know my personal plan, I've got an offer to work on a scientific project at Oxford U. in the UK so for me it's "God Save the Queen" and "God help the USA!" That's not an option for everyone of course, but it'll work fine for me. Now does anybody want to buy a 6-month old Saab convertible with only 7K miles, since I'm not going to bother taking it with me!

 
Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy - frustrated_with_IT - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
"Anybody who supported Reagan needs his ass kicked."
Well than you'll have millions of asses to kick. There was a history channel special on the nation's greatest presidents and the only 2 in my lifetime were, John Kennedy and Ronald Reagan. Both did things that people didn't like. Kennedy was widely disliked and criticised in his time, that is until he was shot. Now people look back on his greatest moment, no president could have possibly handled the crisises John Kennedy as well for that time and the same goes for Ronald Reagan. As Kennedy's legacy will be that he faced down a nuclear missile threat and prevented WWIII so will Reagan's legacy be of ending the threat and "cold war" posed by agressive Russian Communism.
 
Re: Morons alienating from reality - carlgt1 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
Calling people names, you mean like you just blowing me off and calling me a "left-wing whacko" because my politics is to the left of Strom Thurmond?
 
Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy - carlgt1 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
Every Russian I know who hated the Communists laughs their butts off when they hear the spin that "Reagan stopped Russian Communism etc." He just happened to be around when Russians finally got sick of it. It reminds me of the spin that Giuliani and Bush were "great Churchillian leaders" right after 9/11 --- they just happened to be the clowns in office during a horrific event in US history and Daffy Duck would have appeared a world leader at that time.
 
THE dumbest statement I have ever heard - Java_Good_COBOL_Bad - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
Most people don't know that Reagan just happened to be around when the Russians got sick of Communism. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy - frustrated_with_IT - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
You're right you know it all, the rest of us that don't fit into your self righteous way of thinking are just plain Stupid. You will be Americas gift to the UK and it will be Americas loss to have such an enlightened, over educated and all knowing leave our country. But hey I feel generous, we'll manage to limp by without you!
 
Re: THE dumbest statement I have ever heard - ZETM99 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
I believe the jury is still out on how much of an effect Reagan's policies contributed to the fall of the Soviet Union. I believe there is too much American hubris that gets in the way of the fact that much of the Soviet Unions problems were in actually more self-inflicted than from pressure from the American defense build up of the 1980s.

Your welcome to prove me wrong, but here are some links that discuss various aspects of the collapse of the Soviet Union.


Reagan & The Russians
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/foreign/reagrus.htm

It did not reward individual or collective effort; it absolved Soviet producers from the discipline of the market; and it gave power to officials who could not be held accountable by consumers. Consequently much of the investment that went into the civilian sector of the economy was wasted. The command economy pre-dated the Cold War and was not a response to American military spending. The Soviet Union lost the Cold War, but it was not defeated by American defense spending.


http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hpcws/abstracts.htm#fall02

Explaining the End of the Cold War: A New Historical Consensus?
Jeremi Suri
Despite the many books and articles written on the end of the Cold War, scholars have not produced a truly international history of this seminal event. This article shows how some of the most important monographs on the end of the Cold War can be synthesized to yield a preliminary account. In particular, the article hints at a new consensus of interpretation that connects the immediate crisis of the early 1980s, long-term ideological and institutional trends, and transformational choices made from 1985 to 1991. No single decision or variable brought the Cold War to an end. Personalities, trends, and institutions interacted to create an outcome that few predicted.

The August Coup and Its Impact on Soviet Politics
John B. Dunlop
A book published by the author in 1993 contained a lengthy chapter on the August 1991 coup attempt in the Soviet Union. This article builds on and updates that chapter, making use of a trove of newly available documents and memoirs. The article discusses many aspects of the coup attempt, but it particularly seeks to explain why the coup failed and what the implications were for the Soviet Union. The events of December 1991 that culminated in the dissolution of the Soviet Union were the direct result of changes set in motion by the failed coup. The major state and party institutions that might ordinarily have tried to hold the country together – the Communist Party apparatus, the secret police, the military-industrial complex, the Ministry of Defense, and the state administrative organs – all were compromised by their participation in the coup. As a result, when events pushed the Soviet Union toward collapse, there was no way of staving off that outcome.

The Origins of the Reagan Administration’s Arms Control Policy
Rose McDermott
More than a thousand radio addresses drafted by Ronald Reagan in the 1970s, in between his terms as governor of California and president of the United States, were recently published. These addresses, along with related writings from 1951 to 1985, reveal long-standing, consistent beliefs about a wide variety of topics in international relations and foreign policy. In particular, the writings presage specific arms control policies that were implemented in his first term as president. This article reassesses some of these policies in light of the newly released addresses. The article draws on experimental psychology to discuss a specific judgmental bias, availability, which makes particular beliefs more accessible, and then examines the five specific beliefs that influenced Reagan in his approach to arms control negotiations. In each case, the article shows how these beliefs affected policy outcomes and choices.


 
Re: THE dumbest statement I have ever heard - carlgt1 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
Well sorry you can't deal with reality, but outside of Scaife-funded right-wing "think tanks" the notion that "Reagan ended Russian communism" is as much a belly-laugh as teaching "Creationism" as science in American schools.
 
Re: Right-Wing Hypocrisy - carlgt1 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
Stop putting words in my mouth; I never said "I know it all" --- the problem is that Americans think THEY "know it all" and quite often disregard the rest of the world's opinion.

 
Reagan and the Cold War - Java_Good_COBOL_Bad - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
From your first article:
<<To be sure, defense spending was an extraordinary burden on the Soviet economy.>>

Can you say that had no effect on ending the cold war?

To say that Reagan "just happened to be around when Russians finally got sick of" communism is not an informed opinion. Maybe they got sick of it because they had a long day.

 
Bonzo Goes To Bitburg - carlgt1 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
It may have been a factor, but you right-wingers unrealistically spin Reagan as the SOLE factor. The long turn downward happened well before Ronald Raygun's came around; the toppling of Poland, Eastern Europe etc. You can probably give a hell of a lot more arguments to claim the Catholic Pope as the destroyer of the Soviet Union rather than Bonzo.
 
Bonzo Goes To Bitburg - carlgt1 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
It may have been a factor, but you right-wingers unrealistically spin Reagan as the SOLE factor. The long turn downward happened well before Ronald Raygun's came around; the toppling of Poland, Eastern Europe etc. You can probably give a hell of a lot more arguments to claim the Catholic Pope as the destroyer of the Soviet Union rather than Bonzo.
 
Re: Reagan and the Cold War - frustrated_with_IT - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
"Stop putting words in my mouth; I never said "I know it all"

You don't have to say you know it all, I've read the other venemous, pyschotic and pompous posts you've written and it's clear you think you're a world class intellect! Hell you're so damned special that they're waiting for your presence to grace the UK!

 
Re: Reagan and the Cold War - carlgt1 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
Jeez, you insinuate that I'm not even an IT worker, then I post some of my background, and now you complain I'm "pompous." No wonder a moron such as yourself is unemployed. Who would want to hire such a prick?
 
Re: Reagan and the Cold War - frustrated_with_IT - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
Hey maybe you can give the UK the Christmas present early by taking a flight right now. They'll be so excited that his excellence has arrived that your crown will be waiting for you at the Airport. Or you can come to Tampa FLA and I'll show you waht kind of pr*CK I am, one who'd be your worst nightmare. Yeah they're waitng for you in the UK alright, they just don't have your kind of talent there, they had to send off to the US to get you. Now that you've suffciently impressed us by putting on heirs, time to turn off your daddy's computer.
 
carlgt1 - gwb_is_our_master - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
"It's really quite simple -- you guys have whined about quotas, unions, welfare, etc; until it hits your white-collar butts then all of a sudden you are clamoring for protectionism, welfare, unemployment compensation, etc, etc. It wouldn't be so bad if you didn't give up your socially bankrupt Libertarian pipedreams or whatever; or realize that the "small gov't" Repubs never really did do "small gov't" and never really did care about the middle class, etc."

You are 100% dead on right about this. For years I listened to my nitwit coworkers bad mouthing unions and "blue collar" people in general while spouting asinine Libertarian nonsense. Well, guess what? Corporate America's outsourcing of all IT, SE, and other technical jobs to the lowest wage country on the planet with no government interference is pure Libertarianism in action. So all you unemployed current or former Libertarians out there damn sure got what you wanted, didn't you?

 
If Reagan is responsible... - gwb_is_our_master - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
If Reagan and his policies are responsible for the collapse of Communism, does that mean he and his policies are also responsible for the collapse of Capitalism that is currently in progress around the world? If so, history will finally be able to say he did something positive for humanity.
 
Re: Carl, what's up man? - TelPhilly - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
Ok, I see your point about how this H1B argument should of taken place 10 years ago. I also agree that a lot of Reagan Democrats were blindsided. Very, very valid points but can you take the bonehead out of it. There are better ways to get your point across. That being said, probably the only way that John Brown (Civil War) could of got his point across was to be beligerent. Good luck in the UK man, I'll miss you in Philly.
 
Re: Reagan and the Cold War - carlgt1 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
Get a job, you crybaby. Jeez, a new low for "tough guy" right-wingers, yet another claim from an anonymous right-wing twit that he's gonna beat me up. Don't take it out on me that your elected leaders let you down for the one millionth time.

 
Re: carlgt1 - carlgt1 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
Exactly -- as an example I remember a co-worker two years ago who was the biggest Rush Limbaugh fanatic and a total racist jerk. He blamed every problem on welfare sucking blacks etc. Now when he needs an operation, he goes running to Medicare to pay for it, when his uneducated butt got laid off finally (his boss relished the day he had an excuse to toss him) he was whining for extra benefits etc.

These hypocrites don't have the decency to at least change their convictions when their idiotic system has failed, and when they have to rely on what they've been whining about for years.

 
Re: carlgt1 - sharkfish - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
Well, carlgt1, I might not have said it that way. But you are right.
 
Re: THE dumbest statement I have ever heard - KEV9574 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
Sharkfish


Since you hate Reagan so much, why do you hate him? Give some examples of his policies that made you hate him, Please. I am just curious and hope your not like CARLGHT and just Blathers away and couldn't make an arguement if he tried. Oh,no, There goes that "Right-winged, dittoheaded, neo-nazi, conservative" again (Not you shark. That was for CARLGHT in case he reds this posts. I want to watch him ball somemore)

 
Re: Carlgt1 - frustrated_with_IT - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
Nobodys going to beat you up, I was thinking more in line of taking along with me on the trip to hell. Take your butt to the UK where they so desperately need an arrogent, imagined self important piece of pig dung. You are the best example for gun ownership there is. Come on to Tampa Buddy, I'll wait for you at the the airport!!
 
Rednecks With An Attitude - carlgt1 - 12/15/2002 - 3:57:30 PM
HAHA, as if the most arrogant Euro-liberal you can think of is as bad as a self-important anonymous redneck American with a gun!
 



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