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Dot com ruled by US law? (Freedom & Politics)
Posted by titus-g on Fri Nov 3rd, 2000 at 04:19:35 PM EST  

Freedom Internic have deleted the entry for vote-auction.com.

Regardless of whether you belive the site itself to be right or wrong this raises a lot of questions.

A lot of things that are legal in one country are illegal in others, should for example smokedot.org be pulled as such things are frowned upon in some S.E. Asian countries?

Or should the right to pull entries out of gTLDs be reserved for the US?
(not trying to start an anti US flamewar here btw, can't think offhand of any country that wouldn't do this given half a chance)

 


Here's the full mail from Declan McCullaghs Politech mailing list anyway...

As a bit of an experiment, I created a discussion thread on cluebot.com for this topic. Instead of me collecting and forwarding responses by hand, I suggest politech subscribers post them at the below URL instead. It's faster and easier than me doing it manually, and perhaps more democratic. The link: http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/03/1852255&mode=nested

You can post anonymously or sign up to get an account: http://www.cluebot.com/users.pl

-Declan

*********

http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/03/1852255&mode=nested

Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:45:39 +0100 (MET)
From: Iliya Nickelt-Czycykowski <iczycykowski@aip.de>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com>
Subject: vote-auction.com deleted from DNS

Dear Declan,

The conflict with vote-auction.com has reached a new level. Internic deleted its DNS entry on November 1st, after the domain was registered and hosted by an European registry service and was out of reach for US law. You can still reach it at http://62.116.31.68/, and you can read their press release there. A number of other domains (www.voteauction.at, www.voteauction.de, www.voteauction.cu, www.voteauction.ru, www.vote-auction.net, www.vote-auction.org) should be up soon. No matter what you think about it, wether you see it as an political satire or take it seriously (the makers don't), it is interesting to see that .com is obviously ruled by US law. Maybe .eu is a better idea than I originally thought.

Regards,

Iliya Nickelt

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View: Display: Sort:
Dot com ruled by US law? | 55 comments (54 topical, 1 editorial, 3 pending)
Distributed DNS (2.66) (#53)
by andrewmuck (andrewm@engineer.FAKE.com) on Sun Nov 5th, 2000 at 09:26:49 PM EST
(User Info) http://www.opendesign.cx/

There are a few projects for protecting agains government interference, but in need of getting implemented.
Please see the advogato article



 
Request for Hack (3.66) (#52)
by loosenut on Sun Nov 5th, 2000 at 09:21:13 PM EST
(User Info)

I just received an email from RTmark describing voteauction's shutdown. The end of the email said this:

RTMark has secured a $500 investment, of which $300 will be offered to the first person who can redirect the domain of a major US political candidate (for federal or state office) to http://62.116.31.68 [voteauction's working IP address]. The remaining $200 will be offered to the first person to re-route the domain of a major media outlet covering the elections to the Voteauction IP.

Go for it!



 
Are the threats against Voteauction real? (4.80) (#38)
by TuxNugget (linuxfutures@ureach.com) on Sat Nov 4th, 2000 at 12:11:37 PM EST
(User Info) http://www.linuxfutures.com/

Voteauction.com strikes me as a satirical comedy and a massive troll.

At one time, the registration screens for voteauction.com included a "user agreement" that linked to a broken page. There was no way to buy and sell votes -- that part was clearly a facade for making a political statement.

Going back after the "shutdown", I noticed that the court documents listed on the site are undated. This also strikes me as a bit odd.

Also, CNN says that the case will be heard in a Federal Court after the ACLU fought to change the venue , whereas the undated documents on voteauction are supposedly from a county court.

So, what should we believe? They could have pulled their own plug just to get back in the news around election day.



ehem (2.25) (#35)
by boxed on Sat Nov 4th, 2000 at 06:56:00 AM EST
(User Info)

Or should the right to pull entries out of gTLDs be reserved for the US? (not trying to start an anti US flamewar here btw, can't think offhand of any country that wouldn't do this given half a chance)
I can think of a number of countries who wouldn't abuse the top level domain as much as the US. (Observe of course that no civilized country would let anything stand up if they could stop it.) Holland, Sweden and Norway are some of the few countries I know who would definetely be less violent in their administration if they could get this than the US currently is (carnivore and echelon comes to mind). Holland because they are (imho) overly "liberal". Sweden because we have strict laws for freedom of speech and press that are actually followed strictly. Same with Norway but they also have a strong national conciousness against bullying countries (after being occuppied by Sweden and/or Denmark for hundreds of years to and fro and most recently by Nazi-germany). To tell you the truth I'd trust Norway way more than Sweden or any other country when handling internet issues like this.



 
For once, NSI may be in the clear (5.00) (#34)
by byte on Sat Nov 4th, 2000 at 06:07:56 AM EST
(User Info)

Of course, the obligatory IANAL...

But from what I can see Network Solutions looks to be in the clear here. After reading the legal briefs on Vote Auction's site it appears as if they are in violation of laws in many US states as well as US Federal law. From the Complaint posted at Vote Auction:

Title 18, Section 597 of the United States Code (18 U.S.C. §597) provides, “Whoever makes or offers to make an expenditure to any person, either to vote or withhold his vote, or to vote for or against any candidate; and whoever solicits, accepts, or receives any such expenditure in consideration of his vote or the withholding of his vote shall be fined not more than $1,000 or imprisoned not more than one year or both; and if the violation was willful, shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.”

Vote Auction seems to be in clear violation of this statute. While again, IANAL, I certainly think NSI would have cause for concern about any link to a corporation or organization utilizing NSI resources to commit a federal crime. And regardless of wether we like it or not NSI's resources are definately being used here:

From http://www.icann.org/committees/dns-root/y2k-statement.htm

"The root of the Internet namespace consists of a single file, the root zone file, which describes the delegations of the top level domains and the associated records necessitated by the DNS protocol to implement those delegations. Currently, this file is maintained by Network Solutions Incorporated of Herndon, Virginia, USA and is made available to the 12 secondary servers from the primary a.root-server.net. Change control of this file is held by the IANA with changes, typically modifications of the name servers for top level domains, being made approximately once or twice a week."

It's also crucial to note that both NSI and IANA are under contract from the US Government (specifically the US Department of Commerce) to manage the .com TLD. Further, note that the Circuit Court in Cook County, Illinois has granted a preliminary injunction against Vote Auction that states:

1. Defendants and all those acting in concert with them are enjoined from:

A. Using or operating any Internet web site that encourages or allows residents of Illinois to sell their votes to be cast at the November 7, 2000 General Election.

I think it's reasonable that providing RRs (Resource Records for the DNS deficient, the DNS entries that make domain names possible) could be seen as 'acting in concert' with the defendants. Therefore I don't see that it's unreasonable for NSI in this case to remove all RRs for Vote Auction pending further hearings.

I don't know about anyone else but if I were calling the shots at NSI, IANA, ICANN, etc. I would have done pretty much the same as they did. Not because I think it should be illegal to buy/sell votes but simply because there appears to be a large conflict of interest in a company under charter from a government organization assisting in violations of the law.

Personally, I'm undecided on the Vote Auction issue and I'm waiting to see how this all shakes out in the end. What I do think is that this points out the need for either international control of the DNS root servers or extra-national (i.e. no nation or governmental organization) control. If nothing else the Internat has been and I hope will continue to be a very powerful force world-wide for free speach and I'm very ambivilent about any nation, the US included, dictating the shape and content of it.



 
To those who say the US controls .com (3.25) (#32)
by Chakotay (chakotay@voyager.student.utwente.nl) on Sat Nov 4th, 2000 at 03:17:14 AM EST
(User Info) http://home.student.utwente.nl/a.a.arendsen

Fact is, the US should be using the existing but virtually unused TLD .us (yes, and Great Britain should be using .gb instead of .uk, and Burkina Faso should be using .uv, though ofcourse their decision to use .bf is understandable). .com, .org, .edu, .gov and .mil are international TLDs, though they're being hogged by ICANN, and thus by the US. The US should actually be using domains like .com.us, .org.us, etc.

But what I find most appalling here is that a non-US organisation created the domain name, and subsequently ICANN, a US organisation, removed it again. Whence do they reserve the right to do so?

)O(
The Gods have a sense of humour,
So be sure you don't lose yours!



Relevent MLP (3.00) (#19)
by interiot (interiot5921@dbn.domainvalet.com) on Fri Nov 3rd, 2000 at 05:15:32 PM EST
(User Info)

The Debate Over Internet Governance: A Snapshot in the Year 2000

Harvard Law School has interviewed 12 people about governing the internet, with a particular focus on ICANN. Mike Roberts, the president of ICANN is one of the interviewees.

There's a TON of comments on that site, I'll quote just a few here. Sorry they're so long.

    Jay Fenello: [re WTO & ICANN] What I noticed is that the model is exactly the same. You had a process whereby the WTO was set up by multi-nationals for multi-nationals and discredited and eliminated all of the minority voices from their process. You have no representation for people within the WTO. Decisions are made behind closed doors. The WTO also has a uniform dispute resolution policy. How about that? They call it almost exactly the same name. ... The fact that the media doesn’t cover any of them allows each of is to be marginalized and made a minority and silenced because we don’t realize that each other exists. But the internet potentially has the ability to get the word out. I don’t know if we will be successful. The way I see it is we are in a race right now. The race is for all the people who want to see legitimate governance, not decisions behind closed doors in smoke filled rooms, but legitimate governance...

    Mike Roberts (ICANN CEO): There was a lot of comment about that in the summer of 98 in constructing our by-laws. As among by-laws for non-profit technology oriented companies,... these by-laws have very extensive checks and balances in them for looking at the judgment of the directors. There’s the reconsideration provision in which any decision can be challenged by anyone and the board is required to specifically review such a challenge. Beyond that, there’s the independent review provision which we’re almost done with and which will create an external body to deliberate on whether in any given situation the board violated its own by-laws. There are very few, if any, - in fact I’ve never seen or heard of another American non-profit corporation - that has those structures associated with double checking the judgment of the directors.

    Eric Menge: I think there are three main components that really need to be put into any sort of internet governance. One would be representation. Next would be a clearly defined duty, a clearly defined scope of authority... And three some sort of review mechanism to keep a check. ...well, ICANN was suffering from a major problem - lack of funding. ... They had to create a large global scale organization with little staff, no money and a lot of disadvantages. Regarding representation, they are slowly moving in that direction. Hopefully, the at-large membership will help a lot in creating more representation and getting the board to be fully elected. We believe that an elected board is absolutely necessary to have accountability. ...[second,] Whenever you’re dealing with something that is not exactly a government entity but a non-profit corporation, the ability of everyone to have a say, to have input is crucial. That’s where procedure comes in. That way no one can walk away saying it was unfair, I didn’t have a chance to have my say, they were bought and sold by big companies, or they’re only supporting the United States over the rest of the world. ... Finally, the third party is important because they act as an outside check. ... John Locke who believed that no government could ever be trusted.

Also, there's a Memorandum of Understanding that lays out the transition from US government control to ICANN control:

    2. Neither Party, either in the DNS Project or in any act related to the DNS Project, shall act unjustifiably or arbitrarily to injure particular persons or entities or particular categories of persons or entities.

--
-


 
Dot com ruled by US law. (3.00) (#12)
by Forum (forum@disinfo.net) on Fri Nov 3rd, 2000 at 04:35:30 PM EST
(User Info)

I don't know about the rest of you, but just the thought of this infuriates me. By saying that because the US runs DNS, they can effectively shut down a site that they don't like is absurd. For an organization whose First Amendment to their Constitution is "Freedom of Speech", to blatantly kick said free speech in the face because you don't like what it's saying is intrinsically wrong. Something has to be done about this "Well, maybe they were wrong and they deserved it" attitude or we're ALL in trouble, because someday someone isn't going to like what you have to say. Get the word out, tell people what is going on, vote. Do something. One time it may be YOUR door the FBI is kicking in, or your site InterNIC is deleting the DNS entry for.
-- Do something.


Hmm. (3.88) (#11)
by pb (pdbaylie@eos.ncsu.edu) on Fri Nov 3rd, 2000 at 04:26:37 PM EST
(User Info) http://www4.ncsu.edu/~pdbaylie/

Since you don't know *why* it was deleted, this is all just idle speculation. I doubt it was Bill Clinton, the "Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy", or the Supreme Court. More likely, some bozo complained, and it got pulled, but we don't know.

Complain to your provider, or to INTERNIC, and FIND OUT why it was pulled. While you're at it, try to register it again, preferably not through NSI.

Once you find out, or have some more information, THEN post this to K5. I don't like my news to be entirely one-sided, no matter which side it is.




  • Hi pb by titus-g, 11/03/2000 04:56:48 PM (3.00)
    • Hi, titus-g! by pb, 11/03/2000 05:36:26 PM (3.00)
      • Oops... by pb, 11/03/2000 05:42:03 PM (3.00)
        • eeek by titus-g, 11/03/2000 06:49:03 PM (3.00)
  • Go Here by greyrat, 11/03/2000 04:49:47 PM (3.50)
    • And again by greyrat, 11/03/2000 04:54:22 PM (4.00)
      • Thanks... by pb, 11/03/2000 05:30:55 PM (3.00)
  • One sided information. by Forum, 11/03/2000 04:37:00 PM (2.25)
    • I did. by pb, 11/03/2000 04:46:25 PM (4.00)
Discussion board spanners (3.71) (#10)
by interiot (interiot5921@dbn.domainvalet.com) on Fri Nov 3rd, 2000 at 04:23:49 PM EST
(User Info)

Instead of me collecting and forwarding responses by hand, I suggest politech subscribers post them at the below URL instead. It's faster and easier than me doing it manually, and perhaps more democratic.

This situation (same discussion, multiple sites) exists a lot, but few people mirror or otherwise try to connect discussions between Slashdot, Kuro5hin, etc... Or, if they do, they don't mention their source so they can take credit for the ideas. :)

Metcalfe's Law states that the value of a network grows by the square of the size of the network. A network that is twice as large will be four times as valuable because there are four times as many things that can be done due to the larger number of interconnections.

So if online discussions followed Metcalfe's law, there should be some pressure to interconnect, but they haven't. We've moved away from Usenet, IRC, and FTP; and moved towards web-based discussion trees, web/java-based chatrooms, and Napster/Gnutella/Freenet, all with different implementations that would be hard/impossible to combine.

Why? Perhaps there's a variant of Metcalfe's law that says the S/N ratio decreases by the square of the size of the network. Or perhaps common implementations give greater motivation to write spamming/harvesting/monitoring bots. Or maybe we just find Gibson/Walled-City situations romantic because it differentiates us from the next guy.

Or maybe I'm discussing things at such an abstract level that the arguments are essentially meaningless, just like JonKatz's articles.
--
-



.com/.net/.org are US (3.16) (#9)
by Delirium (delirium4u@theoffspring.net) on Fri Nov 3rd, 2000 at 04:15:06 PM EST
(User Info)

Of course .com is ruled by US law - since the .com TLD was created by the US Government, I don't see why this comes as a surprise. Sure, they've made some show of giving up a bit of control in favor of some international arbitration panels, but it's still pretty much US-controlled due to its being a US creation.



 
ICANN (2.60) (#7)
by reshippie (reshippie@nospam.yahoo.com) on Fri Nov 3rd, 2000 at 04:10:27 PM EST
(User Info)

Is still tied to the US government. I think it's the Dept of Commerce, or the FTC.

Therefore, the US government still has a great deal of "influence" (read: control) over it's actions. By proxy, then, they get to cotrol DNS.



Those who don't know me, probably shouldn't trust me. Those who do DEFINATELY shouldn't trust me. :-)



 
.com arbiter (3.77) (#4)
by dreamfish (dreamfish@dreamfish.org.uk) on Fri Nov 3rd, 2000 at 03:07:59 PM EST
(User Info) http://www.dreamfish.org.uk/

Which country takes jurisdiction over a .com? The country in which the server is based or the country in which the domain was registered?

It's further complicated by trying to determine where ICANN and WIPO come into it. We've all heard about people complaining to Network Solutions about use/abuse of a .com and them pulling it without warning or investigating the matter further, especially if that complaint came through the US courts but the domain is operated in another country.



Would you expect anything less... (2.78) (#3)
by h0tr0d (h0tr0d@crosswinds.net) on Fri Nov 3rd, 2000 at 03:01:37 PM EST
(User Info)

from the US? I certainly wouldn't. There are a few things that I've learned over the years and one of those is that not only is the US government run by big business but big business is in return run by the US government. It's one of those you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours scenarios.

Politician (prior to election): Thanks for the 40 bzillion dollar donation to my campaign.
Big Business (prior to election): No problem. We really believe in supporting good(read, easily pocketed) candidates.
Big Business (post election): Hey, you remember that small donation we made, well, we need a small favor now.
Politician (post election): Sure, anything for the people(read, I can claim that this will either save jobs or protect the innocent, right?).

Politician: Say, we're having a bit of a national security problem, could you help out(while my thugs quietly remind you of that tax break we just gave you)?
Big Business: Sure, anything to stand up for the freedoms(read, lobbying and bribery) that we believe in.

I figure this is probably pretty common conversation at the fund raisers and dinner parties of the politically elite.



Legality (3.45) (#2)
by aphrael (aphrael@NOSPAM.misanthrope.MAPSON.discontent.NOSPA) on Fri Nov 3rd, 2000 at 02:59:36 PM EST
(User Info) http://www.burble.org/

While I don't think the DNS entry should have been yanked, I *do* believe it's perfectly legitimate for a state government to go after the people running a site located in the state which is being used to do something illegal in that state. It shouldn't be allowed to go after people running a site located in *another* state, or country, but that isn't what happened here.





 
Further proof (2.86) (#1)
by Signal 11 (signal11@mediaone.net?Subject=kuro5hin comment) on Fri Nov 3rd, 2000 at 02:45:18 PM EST
(User Info)

Further proof that the authoritarian elite in this country have taken over the critical framework of the internet.

My advice remains unchanged: Snub them by either setting up an alternate DNS system and updating your root.hints file, or by distributing new zone files that override root server defaults.

The DNS system is easily compromised via viral RR records... perhaps now would be a good time to revisit the alter.net idea, or impliment a kind of blackhole similar to the MAPS RBL, but that it acts in reverse - keeping censored sites alive and accessible. It would be the first step towards neutralizing the US-centric internet policies.
--
"According to my calculations the problem doesn't exist."



  • 2 be honest by titus-g, 11/03/2000 09:06:58 PM (2.50)
  • OpenNIC by Arkady, 11/03/2000 06:43:45 PM (2.50)
  • "Walled City" by sugarman, 11/03/2000 03:18:12 PM (4.50)
Dot com ruled by US law? | 55 comments (54 topical, 1 editorial, 3 pending)
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