TOPICS discussed inlcude: ideas for peace, personal change, Bush and Bin Laden, good and evil, power and petrol, freedom, ego, and America, Reagan, waning of the American Age, Osama as a lost soul

Bed-In New Zealand: hello aussie and jon, welcome to the bed-in for peace…
orange: like if the mid-east like the way they are and the us like the way they are, man, just left it as it is
aussie4you: hello all
Zorro: i would not tell u why
Bed-In New Zealand: okay zorro, nice talking with you!
Jon: hello
Bed-In New Zealand: oh zorro!
Zorro: i will be back again bye
(private message deleted)
aussie4you: um.....i'm all talked out as far as S11 goes i'm afraid
Zorro: yes
Bed-In New Zealand: i know what you mean.
Patricio: hi all
Bed-In New Zealand: see you later.
Bed-In New Zealand: yes, andy is asleep.
Zorro: bye jaceee
Jon: what type of comments are you interested in hearing Bed?
Bed-In New Zealand: welcome back patricio, how are you?
Bed-In New Zealand: hello jose frances, welcome to the bed-in for peace…
Patricio: fine
Bed-In New Zealand: well, speak your mind on the current situation in afghanistan and how we can best achieve peace!
Jon: well, the global situation is fucked, and has been for many, many years. The latest events are just more in a long series of political manipulations
Bed-In New Zealand: very true.
Jon: as far as how to best achieve peace.........
Bed-In New Zealand: but how can we rectify the situation. it is too depressing to do nothing.
Jon: true
Bed-In New Zealand: where are you located jon?
Jon: outside of massive global revolution, i dont know
Jon: usa
Bed-In New Zealand: east, west?
Jon: midwest
Bed-In New Zealand: right. massive global revolution, hhm. sounds promising.
Bed-In New Zealand: bear with me, i've been fasting along with the bed-in so i am a bit slow at the moment.
Jon: Global events are controlled by forces that most people aren't aware of. It is difficult to change things when the sources of global power are secret and non- democratic
Jon: sorry to be so cynical.....but
Bed-In New Zealand: i agree! and that's what's so fucked. it has become impossible to even know the "truth"
Jon: exactly
Bed-In New Zealand: no, cynical is why we are here. to make sense of it, to try to do something for a change instead of saying things are fucked and letting it go. i am tired of feeling helpless in that way.
Jon: those that control the world don't like it when people discover and try to usurp their power
Jon: they are not open to peaceful negotiation in that regard
Bed-In New Zealand: right, and try to stop them by either repressive means or through intimidation or by creating an aura that nothing can be done.
Jon: yes, or killing them
jaceee: the pathway of action still lies in the establishment of dialogues with those immediately around (whether telepresent immediately) or f2f
Bed-In New Zealand: it is time to change that. how much longer can we put up with this crap.
jaceee: it is all and everything to allow another to change us and to change them, an open dance
Jon: well, people have been putting up with it for 5 or 600 years, but I agree that we must raise awareness
Bed-In New Zealand: we need to break through the wall of fear(s) to let that happen.
Jon: a difficult but noble task
Bed-In New Zealand: one person, one idea at a time.
Bed-In New Zealand: that's the motto but i want more immediate change, now!
jaceee: life is the overcoming of fear...
jaceee: absolutely, as we were speaking about last night
jaceee: for example,
jaceee: your event here
Bed-In New Zealand: please
Jon: So when the fear is overcome?
jaceee: it will be critical to see if YOU change
jaceee: much more than if the Other is changed
jaceee: unless the selfchanges radically
jaceee: how can one expect the Other to?
Bed-In New Zealand: good point.
Bed-In New Zealand: it's all a bit much for me right now.
jaceee: of course, the desire to change what's out there is not BAD
jaceee: but it is straw dog...
Jon: If one does not know the agenda of those in control, self change, while beneficial will do little to change things
Bed-In New Zealand: what else can happen? right - the point i was about to make.
jaceee: oh, I disagree, it will change EVERYTHING -- if your viewpoint, literally changes
Bed-In New Zealand: i mean so i come out changed. big deal, really in the big picture.
jaceee: then all you perceive changes
jaceee: but what is the big picture? doesn't one have to deal with the self in the universe before worrying about everybody else?
Jon: sure
Bed-In New Zealand: but, is perception everything? and is it fluid?
jaceee: or if you think that everything out there should change, and neglect your own 'salvation* what's the point?
Jon: define salvation
Bed-In New Zealand: yes, but is there a responsibility to the social, to the larger world outside?
Bed-In New Zealand: some of both should be present for balance to happen
jaceee: by correcting the self, then that provides an energized platform to proceed
Bed-In New Zealand: and then...
Jon: correcting self.........please explain
jaceee: just a minute, let me copy paste something
jaceee: sorry, couldnt find it...
jaceee: but a typical confucian model -- to center the self is to affect the entire world around.
Jon: correcting self is a lifelong process. There is no single point where one can say, "ok, now i've corrected myself"
jaceee: and without that center -- for example, following an ego based model, like Bush is, it to simply create more calamity
Bed-In New Zealand: yes, but somehow that is not enough for this moment in time for me.
jaceee: that's right, it's not a thing that one can switch like a light
Jon: Bush is just a puppet
jaceee: what would be enough?
Jon: as are most politicians
Bed-In New Zealand: i don't know. if everyone was in peace and filled with love instead of anger and fear. that might be enough.
jaceee: no, Bush is a human who is on his own personal trajectory taking him along a safe pathway where the Other is to be feared first and formost
Jon: It's what or who is behind the curtain pulling the strings
jaceee: but it is always another human... I can't accept that there are forces beyond that, aka conspiracies
Jon: there has never been a time in human history that everyone was filled with peace and love
jaceee: there are a lot of scared people out there, Bush among them
Bed-In New Zealand: right but what i think jacee is saying is that humanity is allowing that to happen so is complicit as well.
jaceee: but the process of facing those fears IS that changing process...
Jon: yes, i agree it is always a human
Bed-In New Zealand: i know, but i can dream can't i?
jaceee: people are acting on the fear of the Other, elemental homopobia, on both sides
Jon: but as I said, when ultimate power is hidden and not allowed to be challenged by conventional means.........
jaceee: actually all over the globe
Bed-In New Zealand: hello chianti doc and heartsbreaker, welcome to the bed-in for peace…
jaceee: but isn’t the human spirit the ultimate power? ... sorry, I am not a materialist
jaceee: this is why acts like this performance CAN be everything...
Jon: yes the human spirit is the ultimate power in an ethereal sense. But that human spirit can be used for both good and evil
jaceee: otherwise, what's the point? will this act "bring down Bin Laden, or Bush"?
Bed-In New Zealand: hello gre, welcome to the bed-in for peace..
Jon: If it were not Bush and Bin Laden, it would be someone else
jaceee: I think there is rather than good/evil, rather the flowing of energies and the blocking of enegies
jaceee: humans tend to block energies, obstruct and re-form, hold onto...
jaceee: where in nature these same enrgies simply flow
Jon: Ok, whatever term you would like to use, I think my point is still valid
jaceee: yes, right, it is a principle,
Jon: negative energy....positive energy
Jon: good....evil
Bed-In New Zealand: i agree with you jon, if it wasn't these two clowns it would be others like them
jaceee: right, so overcoming the blocking of energies beomes not a face-on battle to dstroy the Other
Jon: sure
jaceee: but an internal and external examining of conditions that lead to situations
jaceee: like we have now
Jon: ok
Bed-In New Zealand: ideally.
Bed-In New Zealand: that is not what we have now, i think that is the problem.
jaceee: Bush dos not understand how the world got this way
jaceee: and he is scared, just like Bin Laden
jaceee: REALLY scared
yellowred69: hi room
Jon: No politician does
Bed-In New Zealand: it is a face to face battle and not an unlocking of conditions.
Bed-In New Zealand: hello yellow, welcome to the bed-in for peace..
yellowred69: well there's a lot to say
jaceee: if you believe that f2f has to be confrontation and not something that can lead to a resolution of fears and hatreds
Bed-In New Zealand: it doesn't have to be, it just appears like it to many politicians currently in charge. i wish it was more about examination and solutions.
jaceee: some humans so block and distort their energies that others fall into the vortex ... Hitler etc etc
yellowred69: this f2f confrontation is not so fair i mean
Bed-In New Zealand: how so yellow?
Jon: well, that is an interesting theory
jaceee: and we are engaged in its practice here, now...
Bed-In New Zealand: how so jaceee?
yellowred69: i mean the Talebans are not my favorites but who armed bin Laden first in 1978?
jaceee: we are literally exchanging energies... if you think from a physics world-view
Jon: some humans, because they lack awareness of the energies they possess and that surround them, have those energies manipulated by others
jaceee: sending small packets of EM radiation around the globe to each other
jaceee: exactly, Jon
jaceee: because they have been told NOT to trust their own sensual awarenesses in the world!
Bed-In New Zealand: true yellow, adding to the fucked-upness and energy swapping.
Jon: true
Bed-In New Zealand: where are you located yellow?
jaceee: I see this all the time as a teacher, I get wounded people who have gone thru 15 years of being told that what they perceive in the world is NOT so...
Bed-In New Zealand: hello sony, welcome to the bed-in for peace…
jaceee: that process alone is enough to warp anybody beyond ...
yellowred69: i mean the attack to the Usa was coward as much as the current attack to Kandahar and Kabul
Bed-In New Zealand: how so yellow?
Jon: there are also those misguided souls who are led to believe that their perceptions are true
Bed-In New Zealand: like so many of us/them.
jaceee: I have to hold on to the belief that what I perceive in the world, MINUS all the cultural and social bullshit I have been taught IS something important...
Sony: my english is poor but i would try to give you my feeling about the war
Jon: It is important
Bed-In New Zealand: great, we are listening
jaceee: it is when those warped cultural /social filters are brought in where things go to hell...
yellowred69: do anyone wonder why the FBI didn't manage to detect such well organized (unfortunately) terror attack in NY and Washington and the day after they had already arrested
Bed-In New Zealand: yes, it is importnat jaceee.
yellowred69: all the muslims in USA?
jaceee: like that what Christ experienced is somehow more valuable that what I am experiencing day to day...
Jon: The Current events have little to do with Bush/BinLaden
yellowred69: They have little to do even with Allah and God as well
jaceee: they are simply souls who are floating along without exorcising their fear, afraid to change
Bed-In New Zealand: very little
Jon: this "war" is about economics and maintaining power and "order" to benefit some at the expense of others
yellowred69: Every event happening in the middle east has always something in common: petrol
jaceee: it's about life... one can read the "annals of imperial rome" by tacitus
jaceee: and do without CNN BBC easily
Jon: agreed
Bed-In New Zealand: right, but there are also very oppressed peoples at stake. i suppose on all sides!
jaceee: also has greed in common...
Bed-In New Zealand: always
Jon: yes, and they must stay oppressed for those in power to maintain their power
Bed-In New Zealand: right. how can this be changed?
Bed-In New Zealand: that is my big question? or rather, how can i change this?
Jon: If i knew the answer to that I'd be dead
jaceee: until I left the US I didn't imagine or understand that the Americans are very oppressed people
yellowred69: Can't be change, is in the human nature
Jon: if i knew the practical answer to that i'd be dead
jaceee: I tell my students that the three freedoms of Amerikan society are
jaceee: 1) the freedom to shop
Bed-In New Zealand: cospiracy theorist?
jaceee: 2) the freedom to be lonely
jaceee: and
Jon: true
Bed-In New Zealand: right and...
jaceee: 3) the freedom to get gunned down in the street or imprisoned
yellowred69: chilly
jaceee: a little xtreme
Bed-In New Zealand: in that order?
Bed-In New Zealand: just kidding, a little lightness
jaceee: but I can't hold the US society (which includes the form and execution of govt) to be so superior
(private message deleted)
jaceee: no particular order...
(private message deleted)
jaceee: so how can they be throwing their weight around in this incredibly extreme way? I don't understand the fuckin brazen egos...
jaceee: sorry, I am ranting...
Jon: That is what those in power do
yellowred69: Hey can i try to speak by my mic?
(private message deleted)
yellowred69: is my first time on ivisit
Bed-In New Zealand: welcome! this was ours too.
Bed-In New Zealand: but that is why it is so frustrating jacee, the hypocrisy.
(private messages deleted)
jaceee: well, that's why I don't look to oppose "them"
yellowred69: ok thanks
jaceee: it only lends them more power, their egos leech off of any attention
Bed-In New Zealand: we started the room yesterday at 8 pm our time, almost 35 hours ago, or something like that.
yellowred69: i must go now
jaceee: better to turn ones back and create a new way...
Jon: this is so far beyond individual egos.....
yellowred69: thanks for chatting
jaceee: well, yes and no...
Bed-In New Zealand: bye yellow, thanks for participating.
jaceee: if you subtract the individual from it, what is left
jaceee: bye yellow!
yellowred69: i wish the war would depend on this chatroom
Bed-In New Zealand: i agree with you jaceee here, it is and it isn't.
Jon: the energy
Bed-In New Zealand: me too yellow!
jaceee: it does.
yellowred69: if u're gonna stay for long we'll probably chat later again
yellowred69: ciao everyone
jaceee: later
Jon: bye
Bed-In New Zealand: bye
jaceee: I remember in the Reagan daze
Jon: who doesn't
jaceee: when I saw alot of US artists like making art about reagan
(private message deleted)
Bed-In New Zealand: hi rital, welcome to the bed-in for peace…
jaceee: he would do something and a bunch of artists would do something about it...
jaceee: my definition of reactionary art...
(private message deleted)
Jon: The US fighting a "war" on terrorism is like the Mafia fighting a war on crime
jaceee: I finally figured out that if you want something to change, just let those people be in their own shit
jaceee: and turn and make a new pathway
Jon: true
jaceee: definitely, jon
(private message deleted)
Jon: and hopefully others will follow in your pathway
(private message deleted)
jaceee: it's apity that few Americans will take the risk of "social" ruin by creating this new way
Jon: true
jaceee: but it is brutal to oppose the heirarchy, there can be a heavy price
Bed-In New Zealand: i believe that too jaceee,
Jon: true
jaceee: many in the past have paid he ultimate price
Jon: you're on a roll
(private message deleted)
Bed-In New Zealand: all, everything but how to coordinate the two disparate ideas?
jaceee: but, hey, I think I'd rather make my own way than follow their line...
Jon: many are paying the price every day
(private message deleted)
*** Bed-In New Zealand has booted rital ***
Bed-In New Zealand: right.
jaceee: that's rght, actually so many have paid in the middle east, it's not a wonder why the shit hit the fan, but why it took so long!
Bed-In New Zealand: sorry everyone, had to boot another stalker.
jaceee: the America Age is waning, and has been...
Jon: Many have paid in the Middle East, Europe, Africa, Southeast Asia....................
jaceee: another will come along...
Jon: what is the "American Age"
jaceee: like, maybe this is a gross simplification
jaceee: but I can imagine that Bin Laden, shit, imagine his home life?
jaceee: growing up - 45 siblings?? a lost soul
Jon: common among rich saudis
jaceee: his soul is lost, he has lost his way.
Jon: according to whom
jaceee: (not implying that this is a rationale)
jaceee: he has a soul, for sure, but something in his life made him the way he is, maybe?
jaceee: right?
Jon: that's true for everybody
jaceee: of course he still has the freedom to change, but he is far gone
jaceee: somehow he came to where he is...
Jon: even if he did change.....so what.....this is not about BinLaden
jaceee: gathering angry young men around him
jaceee: well, right, it is about each of us
Jon: europeans did the same during the crusades
jaceee: yup, the history list would be long
Jon: Alexander the great, the emperors of rome, the popes, Napolean, Hitler........................................
Jon: on and on
jaceee: poor fuckin' warped souls...
Jon: indeed
jaceee: but, hey, I have to run... I am fried, sorry for all this ranting... the Finns are none too talkative about such things
jaceee: they think that Finland will be untouched
Jon: well, thanks for the intelligent conversation. Perhaps we shall meet again. I must go and get some things done.
jaceee: http://neoscenes.net
Bed-In New Zealand: my question is can you find love in your heart for these twisted souls but still work to enact change on other levels? i will leave you with that. thanks jaceee, and thank you jon!
jaceee: is my space.
Jon: ok
Jon: Bed, take care of yourself
Bed-In New Zealand: thank you both again for your intelligent words in this difficult time.
jaceee: later Amy, please let me know how things go
Bed-In New Zealand: thanks jon, i'll try.
Jon: my pleasure
jaceee: I have some screen shots and stuff that I can send later...
jaceee: next week if you want
jaceee: likewise!
Bed-In New Zealand: i will jaceee. and thanks, that would be great.
jaceee: cheers!
jaceee: I'll leave this on for awhile after I split...
Bed-In New Zealand: bye, til later...
Bed-In New Zealand: hello deeone, welcome to the bed-in for peace...
jaceee: bye!
Bed-In New Zealand: hello, welcome to the bed-in for peace…
jaceee: hwy, mindaugas!
Bed-In New Zealand: hi mi, welcome to the bed-in for peace…
jaceee: are you there?
mi_ga: hi jaceeeee!!!!!!!
jaceee: I think you are behind the firewall, as I can't see your text here, and your vid isn't coming in...
mi_ga: i'm not in the bed, so i thought that it would be better not to connect camcoder..
jaceee: bummer
jaceee: Amy, can you see text from mi_ga?
Bed-In New Zealand: yes i can
jaceee: ask him if he can see mine... he's a former student of mine in Germany
jaceee: damn firewalls!
Bed-In New Zealand: can you see jaceeee's mi?
mi_ga: i do not see jacee's video
Bed-In New Zealand: do you see his text?
jaceee: Mindaugas, okay, I see your text now...
mi_ga: but i see the txt of him..
jaceee: well, I don’t have my cam on...
mi_ga: so nice..
Bed-In New Zealand: okay, very well, we are all texturally connected.
jaceee: how's it going?
jaceee: I was about to head home
jaceee: been here with Amy and others in this action/happening
jaceee: you saw the announcement on neoscenes list?
jaceee: or Rhizome
jaceee: rhizome
Bed-In New Zealand: been thinking alot about peace and what that means and how to achieve it. and, how that would look!
jaceee: ?
mi_ga: the current glob situation... Well, i am too small to make any changes, it is more the game for politicians. But i understand that it is a problem. world wide...
mi_ga: i've got the info from rhizome/neoscenes..
Bed-In New Zealand: well, we have been talking about that each person can change it, as each person can change themselves. but i too have doubt about how much that will do, or rather, how quickly.
jaceee: I am actually showing 25 fps connection between us, but...
mi_ga: the peace is somehow in our minds, i think. it is impossible to be responcible for all events/actions
jaceee: oh shit, though, I do have to run, they are about to arm the alarm system here...
Bed-In New Zealand: yes, true, but we can't absolve ourselves of all responsibility? no?
jaceee: you two have a nice time, mi_ga, will talk later... cheers jh
mi_ga: shit. finland!!
Bed-In New Zealand: bye jaceee!
jaceee: yup, security! silly sometimes
Bed-In New Zealand: where are you in germania mi_ga?
Bed-In New Zealand: often silly, sometimes not. who can tell when...
Bed-In New Zealand: mi
mi_ga: bye
mi_ga: sorry i'm hanging un a phone now..
mi_ga: phone..
Bed-In New Zealand: _ga, i'm really losing it here, exhaustion and lack of food are taking over. what are you saying?
Bed-In New Zealand: nice still you put up.
Bed-In New Zealand: what are you up to in grmany these days? artist?
Bed-In New Zealand: okay, well, i'm going to take a bit of a rest, but please feel free to write down your thoughts, fears, ideas on peace or whatnot here. thanks
Bed-In New Zealand: hello marco, welcome to the bed-in for peace…
mi_ga: sorry for ofline.. i feel myself as artist, finished the art school at least..
(private message deleted)
mi_ga: ahr, good night ami