NOVEMBER 15, 1997Channel operator: Nell Tenhaaf
Log file opened at: 11/15/97 11:57:36 AM
*** nell has set the topic on channel #fear to fear at the end of geography
nell: we had interesting chat going yesterday on this topic, now let's see where were we...
nell: we were in vienna 17th C. and considering a quebec potential virtual revolution and general recurring ideas such as being from nowhere
cisler: Being from nowhere...I just came from a place that is redefining itself: Guatemala, a country that recently signed peace accords about more than 35 years of fighting. At the same time, the Internet has come into the country during the past year, and both events have changed the face of the land.
nell: cisler, how is the internet present in Guatemala?
krueger: and what has been it effect?
cisler: By advertising the peace accord, the tourist industry is saying "We are safe place to visit, and if you click here and here, you can book rooms, decide where to go. I was at a network training school two years ago, and the Guatemalans were just learning about networking. Since then, it has exploded, and MCI brought a fiberoptic line into the country, so a few cities have very good connectivity. Lots of cybercafes for the rich and rural connect
Robert: cisler, who were the adversaries?
nell: wow, I had no idea. are you saying rural people use the cybercafes? what do they use the net for?
Log file closed at: 11/15/97 12:10:04 PM
Log file opened at: 11/15/97 12:10:26 PM
Robert: I'm not sure my feeling of English as the 'Lingua Franca' (historical irony!) of the 'net.
cisler: There is an org www.francophonie.org which dedicated to ensuring that the French have a firm place on the Net, despite it's being what Chirac called "An Anglo-Saxon Network" in January of this year. They have search enginges that only search French sites. In fact, there is a major Francophone conf. going on in Viet Nam this week.
Robert: Do the principle adversaries have a 'net presence? How do they use it?
nell: people will have to start developing high-speed translation engines so the net doesn't become totally language-stratified
cisler: A guy named Guillermo Delgado wrote a piece for Cultural Survival Quarterly (forthcoming) that details how the different Latin American indigenous groups are using the net. The guatemalans groups certainly are, but I have not found many web sites. I think they are linking with others through mail, primarily. Of course the Guatemala government is online, but since the adversaries are laying down their weapons, the accent is on peace and rebuild
cisler: In general, I see the net being used to reinforce a sense of place and this is going on at the same time that so many people are getting involved with virtual places and groups. Most of the press is about the latter, but the former is what interests me (though this event is kind of neat)...
Robert: a place on the net, which is in fact noplace...
cisler: Nell, have you seen any English-French translation engines that are acceptable to most Canadians ?
nell: cisler, do you know what is the extent of land re-apportioning, since a huge issue in Guatemala has been the deterritorializing of farmers by big corporations/government? oh, and translation engines, no I don't know them, and wonder what would ever be acceptable on any large scale here...
cisler: I don't pretend to know much about the history in Guatemala, but I'm reading about it now. I do know that in the 19th century, the govt. made the Indian groups change the way they owned land, from communal to individual ownership. That left each family open to exploitation, and a huge amount of land was transferred to coffee plantation owners. But land issues were and still are a very big issue. Growing population, not enough farm plots. etc
nell: let me recap: negotiating peace and land use in Guatemala, language gaps, real place and virtual place: reminds me of issues of political or social urgency in eastern europe and their complex presence in virtual space, which came up yesterday
nell: I think that the net makes a big difference just purely informationally, in other words what products I buy in NA might be affected by what I know about land use in Guatemala
nell: do people get their information from the net?
cisler: At an anti-globalization conference, most of the exhibits were full of pamphlets, but one was selling coffee that was picked on a union or coop farm in El Salvador. Info from the net: I'd say they can do that with increasing ease. Certainly, the ex-pat Guatemalans (students, refugees, business people living abroad) can get several newspapers daily plus Usenet groups, but the price does limit who uses it in country.
nell: we're also talking about language of the net, as Robert said, some concerns about english as "lingua franca"
ScottDE: This is something that concerns me as well -- because it is perpetuating...
ScottDE: the pattern of all business being conducted in english.
cisler: I'm not familiar with IRC. Are there many channels that are devoted to other languages and only those languages? Some years ago there was a Citizens Band radio channel in Boston, Massachusetts that was only used by Russian cab drivers.
nell: I only know english-language irc channels, but I have a limited experience of them - that is, only use a few repeatedly.
ScottDE: If you log onto one of the large irc nets like Dalnet and check out the 100s of channels you will find spanish, italian, etc.
nell: great, thanks for that info ScottDE
Robert: It's difficult to speak kanjii when using a US-English keyboard...
ScottDE: Does anyone think about the impact of increasing numbers of programmers working in computer languages.
nell: do you mean computer languages then becoming a kind of common language?
cisler: When I worked at Apple we supported a Hawaiian Language preservation project. All their o/s and web site and supporting materials were tranlated into Hawaiian. It's an interesting example of how the net is used to reinforce a language that was dying.
cisler: Re: computer languages. I'd guess that the syntax and structure would indicate the native language of the originator.
nell: cisler, did Apple support that? and if so, what was their rationale? humanitarian or other?
Robert: How did the Hawaiian to Computer interface work. I am not familliar with Hawaiian text.
ScottDE: That's interesting thought cisler.
ScottDE: I can only imagine Apple doing that, certainly not Microsoft.
cisler: Our research group had a grant program called Apple Library of Tomorrow, and we started out funding an Indian dictionary in Hypercard in 1989. Other groups around the country heard about that and put in other suggestions. I had the leeway to fund those too, but that ended about a month ago.
cisler: Hawaiian has a few non-latin characters. It's easy to modify fonts, and they got permission from Adobe to work with non-public domain fonts. At their web site, you can download the fonts and then view everything correctly. It's pretty painless. They were Macintosh-only, but they added Wintel files once they went on the WWW in 94
ScottDE: There is a website http://www.lsadc.org/Hobbs.html with an article on computational linguistics.
Robert: cisler, languages die when people no longer speak them. For your project to keep that language alive, marginal or non speakers of the language have to have access to that technology.
cisler: Here's the URL for the Hawaiian site http://www.olelo.hawaii.edu/
ScottDE: They mention 'machine translation' which seems to me to be another potentially 'bad' developoment for the language 'ecosystem'. Robert, in some cases languages still live through political action like in Wales. Or in some cases -- new languages evolve like in the inner cities in america.
ScottDE: But there are some astonishing statistics that say languages are become extinct at some amazing rate... I'll see if I can find the number.
will: Actually, there was a survey completed not too long ago that found there were about 2000 living languages...more than double what the researchers had thought
nell: ScottDE, you don't like the idea of machines translating. they take over language evolution then do you think, or intervene too much?
Robert: Scott - the common denominator in the cases you cite are people interacting with each other. The will to speak them.
Robert: I have found it very difficult to have a conversation that I would wish to contuinue with a machine.
ScottDE: Nell, on the case of translation -- given the difficulty of translation involving human agents... it seems so likely that much will be lost. Maybe something will be gained though... but that seems to me the basic discussion around so much of the new technologies, what is gained, but what is lost. It's a question of how to articulate that distinction.
ScottDE: Robert, yes -- that's true... but in cases where it's legislated by a government it's inevitable that one feels forced to speak it -- even if it might be the 'right' thing.
cisler: Robert, the group of young Hawaiians started a school for kids to learn only Hawaiian. These increased to one on each island, and some years later they began using telecomms to tie teachers, students, and then parents together. The main interaction is face to face in the class, but this lets them keep up with the technology and emphasize the traditional, but it's not flawless.
nell: Scott DE, on gain and loss, yes, and as Robert points out we have to count on people wanting to keep their human use of language alive. we have to assume that this will not be displaced by machines but will persist
Robert: re the Hawaiian project: I hope that the children use the language outside of school, and spread it to those they interact with.
ScottDE: Nell, yes, I do assume that the human element will persist. In fact, I have this steady feeling that one of the most interesting avenues to follow in relationship to all this new tech is the one which down which we are articulating what makes us 'human'.
Robert: Otherwise it becomes a cloistered language. Latin comes to mind.
ScottDE: Does anyone think that there is a chance that 'other' languages might actually be spread by the internet -- post-geographically?
Robert: There are many programs in many countries to keep a national language 'pure'. I am not sure how I feel about this.
Robert: Scott - That would be wonderful. Esperanto has had a mild resugence attributable to the 'net.
ScottDE: Is anyone currently living in a country where they don't speak the 'native' language very well?
ScottDE: robert, yes... I recall seeing something about that as well... so has Klingon !!
Robert: Scott - I don't speak Huron or Ojibbwai at all, and I suspect neither does Nell.
Robert: ;->
nell: to me all the knots of the net/language issue are being articulated here. it seems that several language groups are using the net to fortify their cultural identity, but there's always that nasty threat of official distortion of the effort into a new nationalism.
nell: no certainly no Indian tongues. I managed to get french by living in montreal, it's alsmost impossible to do otherwise. and I lost my mother tongue (dutch) through attrition.
ScottDE: Robert, I am living in Amsterdam, teaching at an international school in english and barely understand any dutch.
Robert: My 'parental' 'tounge' is Hungarian.
Scisler: In Namibia after independence they rejected Afrikaans, African languages and German (the old colonial tongue) in favor of English. I'm not sure how that is working out, but you can guess why they did it.
ScottDE: So, most people here are at least bilingual
ScottDE: Is anyone an American?
Scisler: I know enough Spanish to get into trouble, and I used to teach in French in Africa but that was long ago. I'm an American citizen (from Kentucky)
Robert: I was born in Canada. but my parents did not speak English well. As a result I first learned Hungarian. (Television was a very confusing experience for a while :)
ScottDE: An American... what a label !! :0
tkrueger: a question for me is the extent to which media can be used to extend ones affiliations in a way that adds richness or to what extent it results in a kind of competitiveness between ones affiliations
tkrueger: I'm american
nell: america the melting pot, canada the multicultural hodgepodge. our problem (canada) is official multiculturalism, what a concept.
Scisler: First, it gives you a lot more potential affiliations, even if they are not persistent or very strong. So you may spread yourself thinner than if you did not expose yourself to the media (new or old)
ScottDE: On this affiliation thread: I've been thinking about it a lot lately because I have simply been intensely overcommitted with the resultant stress on my relationships with my wife among others.
tkrueger: it seems that the case of the schools in Hawaii is an example of getting both
ScottDE: ... and part of that overcommitment is a result of being extended via this particular media.
nell: back to gain and loss
ScottDE: ... yes nell.
Scisler: >Intensly overcommitted. I think that can come from overconnected. Carrying lots of pagers, Pilots, PDA's with wireless, and cell phones and never being too far from the matrix
Simon: email generates work
nell: yes it certainly does
Simon: email becomes oppressive
ScottDE: Scisler, yes... and I teach an intro internet course to students here and sometimes feel like the pied piper. Try to give them some critical perspective, but they can't WAIT to be hooked in.
Scisler: I travel to other geographies to get away from that connectedness, but I do call my family from time to time when I'm on the road
Robert: Scisler - I hope that the people will question this 'connectedness'.
ScottDE: I no longer take a notebook with me.
Scisler: Nor do I.
Simon: and when you come back from 'the road' you have 265 new messages
Robert: re-evalution of what it means to be 'connected'
Scisler: I took only a paper notebook to Guatemala, and my handwriting improved a bit
nell: net connections are often much more intense than old-fashioned friends-at-a-distance, you feel obligated to maintain them with frequent check-ins
ScottDE: maybe this is a good point to mention the 'fear of the end of geography'... might mean fear of too much connectedness via the net? tkrueger: this I think will have political implications as mentioned earlier
Simon: its also disconnectedness, in the sense that , due to connection, my close friends are on other continents, I only interact with them by email
Scisler: I believe that with more connectedness we will have more travel to solidify the worthwhile virtual connection and see the people face-to-face at a cafe or home or at a conference. so there will be more travel, more real-time conferences and certainly more hybrid events such as are going on in Graz right now
ScottDE: Scisler, I think you are right actually -- who here is familiar with the nettime bunch... who subscribe precisely to that paradigm.
nell: politicized uses of the net seem inevitable, infiltration of opinion and choice -- whether of language or vote
Simon: of course: embodied relating. You can't get away from the fact that real communication is more than connectedness
Scisler: Nettime is where Rafael got my name, I think
ScottDE: Rafael got my name from Susie Ramsey who is 'connected' to nettime.
Robert: Simon - due to connectedness, I have less time for my local friends.
Scisler: For people who can type and articulate in writing, the Net is great, but it's still pretty austere, and people will want richer interactions
Simon: you have 49 new messages (*fear*)
Simon: robert: indeed. I sit in a dark room punching keys and imagine that the activity is *social*
ScottDE: Yes, typing... fast. Used to be in meant you could be a 'great' secretary, now it means you can carry on a relatively intelligent conversation in real time.
nell: nothing will replace a (good) conference, a group of sympatico people who really want to throw ideas around (anything is better than a bad conference, on the other hand)
Simon: ok ok I'll stop griping
ScottDE: Presumably this is a social interaction now? Nell -- yes on that bad conference thing.
tkrueger: what goes on in the conference is best backstage
Robert: tkrueger - yes, else it could be bone by fax.
Scisler: I've been involved a lot in community networking (Amsterdam Digital City is one example in Europe), and the goal is to reinforce local geographic relationships between people and orgs and not just start new and distant virtual ones. Of course, both take place in a successful community network
Robert: Some of the worst conferences I have been to were also the most enjoyable for that reason.
ScottDE: tkrueger, not always == one of my occupations the last 5 years has been organising dynamic and creative symposia on the theme of 'performance' in combination with other disciplines. Performance, Food and Cookery for example.
Scisler: Scott, you might like to know about Foodnet out of Athens, Ohio. They are linking up commuity kitchens around the US where people do large scale communal cooking, caning, and food production.
tkrueger: dynamic and creative would be a nice change of pace
nell: ScottDE, this is a social interaction for me. but the question remains, would I recognize the people I'm talking to whom I currently don't know, if/when I actually meet you
ScottDE: Scisler -- that sounds interesting.
Scisler: ScottDE, I can dig up the contact and URL if youwrite me later <cisler@pobox.com>
ScottDE: nell -- true -- but don't we all love that moment of actually 'meeting' an e-correspondent.
nell: Scott, I don't know, sometimes it's scary
ScottDE: Scisler -- will do thanks.
sufem: fear thats true
Simon: Scisler: please expand, how does local internet advance local organisations (in your perspective (as opposed to say, meeting at the pub?
ScottDE: nell, I guess I know what you mean. But I've had good luck so far... in that I have some good friends who emerged by chance out of some discussion list or something.
nell: sufem, we've been talking about connectedness, real and virtual, relaltion between the two especially with regard to "real" geographies
Simon: not to mention local community and dispersed community
ScottDE: Is anyone keeping an eye on how we 'look' in Graz?
Simon: of course, academic community, religious communities, were always dispersed
nell: Scott, I'm watching the webcam and the shadows are clear but the text is not very visible in them
ScottDE: Is anyone actually there? Rafael?
Simon: ...net is just faster
sufem: meeting on VR depends on the level of online persona construction..and connectedness. the factor of online spent time is defining as well online personality- strong or not so strong,
nell: Scott, yes there are lots of people passing by. I especially like the shadows of hats and hadbags, personalized features
Simon: Scisler, maybe you missed this, I repeat: please expand, how does local internet advance local organisations (in your perspective (as opposed to say, meeting at the pub?
sufem: fearless with having a lot of connectivity, frightened and being an unsecure character (avatar) with always shifting logins and busy ol times- thats an economic questions also..
nell: Scott, oh I see. yes rafael is in Graz
ScottDE: nell, thanks -- I guess I'm 'closer' geographically, than you.
ScottDE: That's an interesting thing for me to try and imagine -- where you all are on the 'map' so to speak.
ScottDE: would be a nice feature to be able to click on something and 'see' that information.
sufem: could anybody just post the exact url of the webcam?
ScottDE: http://xarch.tu-graz.ac.at/filmarc/fest/fa3/fear/repository.html sufem...
nell: sufem, do you mean you feel frightened about losing track of your net identities? I'm reading a lot into your statement...
PaulHz: or http://xarch.tu-graz.ac.at/filmarc/fest/fa3/fear/video/rcp_ram.cgi
nell: let's locate: I'm in Toronto
Log file closed at: 11/15/97 1:24:12 PM
Server Crash
Log file opened at: 11/15/97 1:24:27 PM
tkrueger: sinom, embodiment seems the key as we all have multiple affiliations and often multitask them my net interactions are one dimentional by comparison
PaulHz: That have a "place" at all could be threat
cisler1: I was hoping he would be here since I was in Nigeria at the start of that civil war in the 60's It was pretty terrible, even at the beginning
sufem: loosing track of your netidentity, is sth. just discussed with erik davis..being in linz last week- and that's where my geographical position is at the moment- being back at the point of the geographical relation
Simon: hello ted
PaulHz: For a North American (US) used to nomadic employment--the rule in this country--the very notion of place sometimes seems strange.
sufem: going for real ziggies without fear from dying of it
cisler1: I wonder if Rafael could say what has gone on in Graz, the place, as people read the words on the wall of the building. Any reactions or local conversations?
PaulHz: So the net is a further form of nomadic existence
Simon: paul: indeed, top reiterate my previous point, academic community has always been dispersed, proto-virtual
PaulHz: placeless place--could be comforting
PaulHz: Like Gertrude Steain said of the Midwest US--there's no there there
ScottDE: Paul -- I agree... about that notion of place. I feel so little sense of place and I think this must be the case for a lot of north americans (at least those who have only been 'there' for about 200 years)
tkrueger: I think stein ref LA but it applies to Midwest and many others
cisler1: I sent Rafael a review of a book called "Rooted in the Land" where a professor wrote about not moving around and being loyal to place
PaulHz: But I go back to my wife's pueblo in Spain, where the generation that survived the Civil War still have all come to retire--because it is their place
PaulHz: tkrueger: Yeah, LA sounds even more like that!
nell: to me it seems that this phrase, sense of place, refers to history and genealogy. if one is uprooted from it, there's still a craving to belong, but it may then be an adopted spot on the global map, even just a piece of land
Simon: well, scott, paul et al: it could also be that US culture has tried very hard remove sense of place, for instance, a fast culture, growing fast, looks homogenous, the same all over, no sense of place is encouraged
PaulHz: A bloody piece of land
tkrueger: so do we really need place anymore
nell: Simon, I sense that for sure. a dandy piece of marketing.
cisler1: In "rooted in the Land" some of the strongest descriptions of place are in the American midwest. Wes Jackson, an agronomist, bought a dying town in Kansas and has been reviving it in unusual ways. No telecomms so far, though
PaulHz: and is there a kind of agoraphobia about having no place--or is it a refuge of sorts?
Simon: nell: an increased craving, nostalgia for the lost imaginary...
cisler1: The biggest fights are over place, even down to telcos fighting over physical co-location of servers...
ScottDE: Stein said, flying over the midwest fields, that she now saw where Picasso got his lines from.
PaulHz: Like big city anonymity is splendid if you've ever run afoul of small town mores
tkrueger: actually the fields are designed to look like a Picasso from the air, those farmers...
PaulHz: and the UFOs
ScottDE: ... tkrueger, hahaha...
Simon: cisler1: how can you be 'rooted in the land' if you just bought it?
cisler1: Ley lines, Nasca figures...
nell: Scott, there ya go, the modernist fragmentation of the coherent imaginary whole, alienation
tkrueger: I owned a house once hated it...
cisler1: A number of the authors have been 'on the land' in question for generations
PaulHz: a restructing of the landscape meant to psychify it
nell: that's it, as a person without a sense of place I don't see why the place would have to have been "mine" for any length of time, I just have to want to be there
cisler1: A friend of mine who is a real nomad and gypsy is building a house. How it will change her life!
tkrueger: she should do it on a truck chassis
ScottDE: We sold our place in NYC, and relocated here to Amsterdam, but I miss Wales.
PaulHz: turns out the Nazca lines are graffiti?
cisler1: In the U.S. there are large numbers of 'sunbirds' or 'snowbirds' who live in motor homes (caravans) and head south to the winter. They are discovering email, and there is now pressure on the camping places and motor home parks, even in Mexico, to provide this service. They are really hooked, from what I hear
Simon: scott: ditto, i miss Zihuatenejo and oodnadatta
nell: I miss the place that I once imagined I would settle down in
cisler1: I miss the names alone! Zihuatenajo, Chichicastenango...
PaulHz: In Finland, net connections in all the hotels (a friend says)
cisler1: Where did you imagine you'd settle, Nell?
ScottDE: How does it make you feel to look at a map of where you would like to live?
cisler1: Finland and Iceland are the most connected I think
nell: cisler1, I think it never had a specific place, but it had a look and feel, it was not urban and it had magical properties
PaulHz: Becasue of isolation in the winter
cisler1: Will cold geographies drive people online more, and will warm climes drive people outside to visit and walk on the plaza?
nell: my first good (don't ask me to explain that!) cuseeme connection was with a woman in alaska
PaulHz: Events mark places as fearful And some seem so by their very nature--wastelands, mountrain passes
ScottDE: Was watching a show recently on 'glacialogists' -- online AND in the cold AND investigating the global warming which might drive more people outside.
Simon: sense of geographical isolation combined with a sense of cultural inferiority: Finland and Australia are the most connected
PaulHz: We connect around those places
cisler1: Killing fields, lost battles, earthquakes...
PaulHz: urban ghettoes
tkrueger: small towns
PaulHz: My father would not set foot in Spain while the dictatorship continued
nell: still we want to visit those marked places, vis. CNN
PaulHz: My wife's aunt could not speak of the city of Teruel where her husband was executed
cisler1: In the book "Routes" the author writes about the points of connection, the border territories where people meet, clash, exchange pieces of culture, music..
ScottDE: iraq thanks to cnn -- how many of you are in a place infiltrated by this global monster?
PaulHz: fear in measured doses--adenalin high, piped in by TV
ScottDE: Dennis Potter was talking in his last interview about being a 'border' person on the border of england and wales... thus he grew up 'hating' the welsh.
PaulHz: Myths change on the border, heros turn into villains
ScottDE: Everyone, I need to go know -- only had an hour so it's been great chatting, enjoyed very much, good luck with everything.
sufem: seeing fear focused on the geographical/physical notion of placeless
PaulHz: Roland is a Christian hero but a Mozarabe villain, in early Mediaeval ballads
nell: sufem, or we could also call it multi-placeness, affiliations with more than one place, torn
cisler1: I think Robin Hood (Robin Du Bois) was like Roland
PaulHz: Depends on who writes the history
tkrueger: and depends on who experiences the present
PaulHz: multiple identities with multiple geographies, some (or all?) of them imaginary
sufem: is the interest on physical locations also caused by the problem of just gaining deeper experience, expanded and more intense by mediated talks like this, but paradoxicallly avoiding body contact- this is the INBETWEEN - imaginative
cisler1: Well, that re-write is what is happening in Guatemala. Going from the "Columbus discovered the new world and the Spanish built our country" to a version where the Mayan rulers get equal time. The books will be re-written, and the Indian languages will be taught. How they use the net for that will be most interesting.
Simon: Does identity depend on geography anymore?
sufem: depends on what geografical server u are ;-)
cisler1: Talking to American Indians tribal leaders, I would say YES!
PaulHz: For a previous generation (the pueblo) it does, but no more
sufem: but the technopagan images are perfectly fitting for what we are doing here in the placelessness of irc world
PaulHz: the Spanish pueblo, not the Native American--but in the generation of farmers still there, there is also this tie to the land
nell: an Indian tribe on the east coast of Canada recently won the right to log trees (worth lots of money) on crown land because of an old treaty. who knows what they feel about the land per se, it seems more a question of having jobs that are now controlled by big logging cos.
PaulHz: Randy Ross, a Lakota & community organizer, reports that the net is essential to maintaining traditions
Simon: increasingly beng eroded by land "redistribution" and global agribusiness
sufem: so tribes that slumber- also need identificaton, isn't there the big fear of loosing characteristics, identity for the sake of hoax
nell: traditions are particularly important in the face of the face of political powerlessness. something must bind.
cisler1: Randy works with the Lakota, but he's from an Oklahoma tribe. He says he beats his head against the reluctance of some tribal leaders to see the importance of this technology.
PaulHz: And encryption is very important to the scattered tribes, to keep the secrets handed on by tradition
PaulHz: Thanks, I'm corrected
Simon: Mind you, there is along tradition of using techology against native peoples. It does not surprise me that they distrust it
cisler1: There's an American Indian owned software company that has a product for Windows users called PowWow and the social unit is the 'tribe' Has anyone used it?
tkrueger: simon especially if the only available language is english
cisler1: I just edited an issue of Cultural Survival Quarterly on how the Internet affects indig. groups. It should be out in December. See www.cs.org for more info. It will be in print and I hope, html
Simon: ciscler: tell us about powow
cisler1: Well, I'm in the mac tribe so I have not used it. I think it allow groups of people to chat and 'move around the web in a group' from the description I read
cisler1: Tribe register, and many are communities of interest, but some are ethnic groups. Oddly, one of the first were Icelanders, but that was over a year ago.
nell: oh that applet that lets you form a web group. that's really interesting.
PaulHz: That means everyone sees the same page?
Simon: I think the mac tribe is rapidly being exterminated by the win tribe
PaulHz: Aha--but there's a new Intel megabug, brings the processor to its knees...
cisler1: http://jabi.com/internet/3/index.html is the URL for info on Pow wow. The program is free
nell: perhaps we need some new tribal leadership
PaulHz: No--don't follow leaders! :>
nell: on that note, everyone, I want to segue (sp?) us into the next and final topic, fear at the end of biology.
rafael: Hello All, I am back, some tourists have been at my station...
rafael: we are at the installation and fortunately the rain is not falling
Simon: hi rafa, we're afraid of biology now
tkrueger: or the end of it
nell: rafa, we are moving into biospace (time?) now
*** nell has set the topic on channel #fear to fear at the end of biology
rafael: we have read the proceedings of the previous session and people enjoy it greatly... are you all on the webcam?
nell: very good, I thought it was quite splendid
tkrueger: not on the webcam in an effort to keep up speed
rafael: ok webcam, something special happened recently at the installation...
Simon: webcam: no, my connection is too slow
nell: yes, I also go on and then off to let my machine do its best
nell: I have seeen the hats and purses though, did you see my comment? real people!
rafael: we had a paraplegic man project his shadow, he could make it very much larger than anyone else, and this seemed to give him great pleasure
nell: he had a biological expansion moment
Simon: how, because his shadow was more massive?
rafael: yes, the amplification was gratifying I guess, we also had children who would step on their teacher...
tkrueger: this moment was overlayed with an appropriate coincidence of text I hope
rafael: also pleasurable
nell: lol. I remember that trick
rafael: It was interesting that as we discussed teleabsence, somebody's absence could create a poetic moment... (pretentious artist ?)
rafael: nell, why don't you briefly recap some of the issues that were discussed in the last end of biology session
tkrueger: technology and biological expansion
nell: I was just checking that out, hang on, better if I do a quick scan..
Simon: meantime: I was just listening to the radio: high levels of pesticides in the water of 28 out of 29 us cities, unknown medical effects...
Simon: meantime: new evidence that low level microwave fields (such as those encountered in cellphones) reduce learning ability
tkrueger: no linger have to buy bugspray for the flowers, just water
amanda: I am feeling no fear just now
nell: augmentation and extension: less meat, more gear: from Andreas, and I think a general (if mostly sci-fi) fear of the end of bio
amanda: I am tryin' to grasp the discussion
nell: hello amanda and welcome. no fear of "less meat / more gear"?
Simon: I understand that european royalists have proposed a new euro-monarchy for the EU. Presumably, dna samples will be taken from all surviving european royalty and blended together, the result will be a cloned king or queen of europe. ..
nell: Simon, why does that make me think of ant colonies?
amanda: no fear of it, no, nell, no gear without meat, I think
nell: amanda, true, but the meat is affected even by what Simon was describing, techno-byproducts everywhere around and in us
tkrueger: might as well expand the geographical distribution of samples and go for king/queen of the world
Simon: you mean 'ant clonies' :)
nell: Simon, good one ;)
Simon: I'm for it, but who will organise it: W>H>O?
amanda: the royals r so inbred already, they're a dyin out race, so blending their dna will probably just finish the job
tkrueger: who indeed
nell: would you guys agree to including in "gear" all the over and inadvertant effects of tech - from the dna splice to the environmental toxin? or just our "designer" attempts at it?
Simon: yes of course, but in the intersts of european unity, you'd want to (genetically) fix their haemophilia etc...
nell: Simon, the human genome project could take it on as a test case
Simon: Yeah, mcDonalds could spponsor it! King Ronald of Europe...
tkrueger: the designer approach is of interest as it assumes an intent
nell: lol
amanda: royalty mega byte burger?
nell: tkrueger, well that was what I was wondering about, how we deal with intent in relation to all the accidental crap we have to then live with
rancour: royal jelly. sorry
nell: royal burger 'n jelly
amanda: heeeheee
Simon: you want that with fries?
nell: hello doppelRob, we've fashioned a mcdonalds queen/king of the world, ronald(a), and her/his royal tastes are in the works, oh it's a clone of course, product of the HGP
doppelRob: Hello, I am a clone of Robert
Simon: seriously though: the 'gear by intent' is a prodcut of 'environmental gear' in curious ways: ie the chip industry produces all manner of complex organic polutants, we want the chip, we get the junk, we develop more tech to compensate, round and round...
nell: hmm, I was just going to ask if there's such a thing as an accidental clone
nell: Simon, yes, an important perception.
Simon: newsflash: King Ronald of Europe shot in Sarajevo...
nell: we perfect robots to go into places where humans can no longer venture for the toxic junk, and that of course helps us colonize mars as well(!!?)
Simon: not to mention signs of (viral/bacterial) life on mars, wait till they bring some back...
nell: mcdonalds declares war on the eu
Simon: ICBMs (intercontinental burger missiles) have been fired on major cities
nell: lol.
rafael: tele-absinthe
nell: rafa, you're still on menu planning, are you menu planning for the cloned royal? too late, we've had an incident.
amanda: an incident? nell?
Simon: Italy responds unilaterally with its SDA (spagetti defense initiative)
nell: amanda where did you leave off? don't worry, it's just a game-of-life as they say in alife. hey we might have a marketable idea here...
krueger: sorry...explosive device located in system software tkrueger is now just vanilla krueger
nell: hello krueger, welcome back. okay, we've been spoofing cloning, but can I ask again, is there such a thing as an accidental clone (a rather un-serious question, just to get back to question of intent)
Simon: krueger: you missed the fun
krueger: well you get a few naturally occuring as twins, of course but accident otherwise do happen
nell: such as?
krueger: i'm thinking...
amanda: I'm thinking hard too
nell: don't think too much, or think about something else if you like. cloning is actually not my favorite topic...
doppelRob: Watch out not to exceed your process limits ;)
amanda: our thoughts have been cloned I think
Simon: so what is your favorite topic
krueger: thanks for letting me off the hook on a not well considered response
amanda: :brain explodes into thousands of tiny pieces
nell: my favorite bio-topic would have to be ...
amanda: biological washing powder?
Simon: whiter than white
amanda: we have whited out here
doppelRob: host amanda - Segmentation fault, core dumped
nell: umm, I would have to say ummm yes I'm drawing a blank
Simon: come on! there are plenty of bio fears... pick your favourite one
amanda: but r u afraid? or just blank?
Simon: PRIONS!!!!
krueger: prisons
Simon: Aliens?
doppelRob: pions?
nell: oh no, I'm not afraid, I just have bizarre interests that are swimming like half-formed things in my brain
Simon: half fomed things.... hmmmm!!!
amanda: and is there a fear in the half-form never reaching full form, nell?
nell: simon wants to talk about prions, and I forget how they work, but I know they're like weird half-formed thing that get to your brain
doppelRob: left or right half?
Simon: got a card from a woman the other day, thanking me for my essay, it sounded like derridean embryology
nell: well, there's something nice about the half-formed stage, yeah it is rather right brain.
nell: simon, pardon?
doppelRob: Nell - prions are pop songs? or a syphillis like disease?
nell: hmmm, prions may be pop songs, yes, but I believe they're actually proteins
amanda: c'mon, what r prions?
nell: simon, YOU brought this up
Simon: prions: jakob-kreuzfeld syndrome, mad cow disease, don't pet groundhogs, they've got it too...could be the cause of Alzheimers
nell: really I hadn't heard that. so as with many of these newly discovered syndromes, it's been around a long time, unnamed
Simon: prion is a self replicating protein, makes a virus look like a member of mensa, neurobiologists hi pick... some theorise them as a cause of schizophrenia ...
nell: well a prion can't suddenly be the cause of every unexplained ailment
krueger: lowest rung of self-rep?
Simon: seems that way, just an unshelled protein (not protean)
krueger: any one after domestication yet?
doppelRob: How big do they get?
nell: is self-replication in this sense an aberration, something like the exterminate button didn't get properly pushed?
krueger: well self -rep is always an aberration
nell: given that self-replication is one of the driving principles in "new biology", it seems interesting that we "discover" prion now.
Simon: you don't look for it if you don't suspect its there...
nell: krueger, do you mean as in a cancerous cell
krueger: as in all of life
Simon: indeed, the catechism of Alife, not to mention AI: its got to reproduce
nell: whoa, krueger, elaborate
krueger: it seem that the carbon chain found a way to stave off entropy for a moment not much else does that
Simon: a stream of local order
nell: complexity theory as it applies to biology is very big on the idea of autonomous, self-replicating and self-organizing entities. and indeed, the idea is an answer to entropy
nell: because the self-extending unit, whatever it might be, does (thermodynamic) work and sustains itself
krueger: alsa temporary from the individual perspective
Simon: only a _local_ answer, increased order inside, increased entropy outside
nell: there's a huge tautology, though in this discussion, admitted by the theorists: what in the "outside" provokes the local order and its self-sustaining energy?
Simon: we contribute in our little way to the heat death of the universe, just by living
amanda: temporary from the individual perspective, Krueger?
krueger: entropy wins
doppelRob: Here in Canda we contribute a lot...
nell: entropy doesn't win organically, organisms go on
krueger: sure as a group
doppelRob: Entropy always wins. Perhaps that's why so many ninteenth century physicists were so depressed.
nell: but that's what inspired Schrodinger, why/how organic life coutners entropy
doppelRob: Nell - organisms go on, but at the expense of order and energy in the system.
Simon: doppelrob: but we got over it, now we just consume
krueger: so what's ending boilogy these days
nell: the system, if you mean the inorganic, has its organizing principles as well
doppelRob: Nell - yes, though mostly nuclear, thermodynamic and mechanical
amanda: I can only perceive the inorganic organically as I still think perception is bodily attribute ... I'm not very evolved I think this is mayb my fear
nell: krueger, biology has fused with technology industries, doesn't end biology per se but ends a view on biology as having to do with nature doppelRob: The sun is a highly complex system that is self-organizing, but it's rate of entropy production is fantastic.
nell: doppelRob, don't ask me why I would resist the idea of entropy, it just doesn't get me down!
krueger: sure does ends perhaps a view of this nature thing as well
Simon: I read that the predicted lifespan of the sun may be _all_wrong_ according to new data, so those C19th scientists were projecting, based on a misconception, poor things were more the subjects of their own scientific literarity than they ever imagined. Mind you, so are we of ours...
nell: amanda, the inorganic can't be disconnected from the organic in any number of ways, I think
krueger: what's the current estimate simon, I have dinner plans tonite...
doppelRob: Simon - 19th C scientists had liitle understanding of the Sun. It wasn't until the 1930's that people theorized a viable mechanism.
Simon: nell: "the inorganic, has its organizing principles as well"... the Delandian heresy...
doppelRob: Here in Toronto, the sun will last maybee another two, three hours.
nell: yes but doppelRob, it will be back tomorrow
krueger: simon turbulence is self-organizing
amanda: the sun emigrates from norway in the winter
Simon: ok, but my point is that depression over the heat dath of the universe depend on the fact that you _believe_ a (scientific) narrative...
doppelRob: Goes south to warmer climes, does it?
nell: we're doing some wonderful anthropomorphisizing here, folks.
amanda: sure thang doppelRob, that's what I believe just now
Simon: sun is a snowbird
krueger: there are other naratives but is it always a question of belief..
doppelRob: Yes, the people wrapped up in heat death were ignorant of univeral expantion or even radioactivity.
Simon: me too, and who knows what we're ignorant of
doppelRob: amanda - how many hours of the day are you dark for?
amanda: in the throws of winter .... 18hrs
doppelRob: Simon - I agree. Too many people believe in their own hubris.
krueger: great line
nell: as for Delanda, who insists on this continuity from inorganic to organic because similar complex dynamics (don't you feel like there are strange attractors inside you?) are to be found across the board, his narrative is mainly cultural but that's good for me because so is mine
doppelRob: amanda - how high does the sun get in the sky, say today?
nell: and so we're concerned with the sun staying up there, as it currently isn't doing very well for many of us.
PaulHz: and sending carcinogenic rays
doppelRob: Paul - only when we let it.
amanda: oooh ... I can't remeber doppelrob ....
Simon: nell: "this continuity from inorganic to organic because similar complex dynamics" of course, to the biotech world, this _is_ heresy because life is defined by the ability to replicate
PaulHz: stripping off the ozone doesn't help
amanda: remember, I can't remmmmber how 2 spell romanmber
doppelRob: amanda - in Toronto, it gets tired about thirty derees up. Then it goes down to rest.
Simon: amanda: prion induced alzheimers? It can strike at any age...
PaulHz: and may be at work even now in this brain of mine
amanda: thanx simon, I'd put down my memory loss too many hrs spent on the net
Simon: could be...mine too
PaulHz: once we discover tofu can contain prions, too
amanda: the veggies will start to shake
PaulHz: even vegetarians won't be safe
Simon: luckily they don't *seem* to be infectious...whatever we mean by infection at this point...
PaulHz: memes are infectious
Simon: nell: but Delanda doesnt include replication as a necessary cause...
nell: now memes are an excellent example of something that is totally defined by the narrative of the user, or the group. what else are they except that?
PaulHz: Anyone read The Mind Parasites?
nell: Simon, Delanda kind of sticks to nonlinear dynamics in a more general way, doesn't he?
Simon: right
PaulHz: If language can be alive, then ideas, too..
PaulHz: and insidious...
nell: PaulHz, wait wait, what does alive mean in your phrase?
Simon: isn't the power of narrative a wonderful thing...language is alive, therefore it's infectious
nell: Delanda doesn't really take on "alive"
PaulHz: "alive for ideas really seems a question of (their) authority
nell: "yes, we can say all these things, the way we're using them now is metaphor. their meaning will depend on who we're speaking to.
nell: authority and autonomy.
Simon: fine, but its people that give them authority
krueger: still a question of beleifs
nell: autonomy is a very hot idea from "new biology" and is used again in quite specific, although always somewhat metaphorical" ways there
PaulHz: on the other hand, if language were in invocation of a pantheistic vision of the world, coextensive and able to manipulate it, prejudice it, conjusre it, it would be alive in that sense, too.
Simon: Nell: autonomy is of course very hot in cs and robotics too
nell: Simon, yes, in a related way. why do we want to say alive here, what do we *mean* or what are we trying to
krueger: comes up in architecture on occasion
PaulHz: architecture that defends itself from people
nell: what does, autonomy? that's interesting
krueger: that can respond independantly
Simon: AI, Alife, autonomous agents..golem, galatea...notice any continuity?
nell: in biology, it's centered on the idea of the self-organizing unit, the origin of order and pattern in nature
Simon: smart buildings, ubiquitous computing seen from the outside...
nell: Simon, what is galatea? I know the book called that, but what is the reference?
PaulHz: language seen primarily as a form of control, not alive in itself, but mediating different systems--the way things get organized
amanda: wow ... the shadows r great now .... sorry ... they're distracting me
Simon: galatea: greek myth of an artificially generated woman...details escape me, shall i go to my encyclopedia of classics?
nell: PaulHz, I tend to agree very much with that. it's an interface.
PaulHz: Four shadows
krueger: but the control is distributed and there is no attribution of responsibility
nell: Simon, well not if it's trouble. I can look it up.
Simon: PaulHz: language seen primarily as a form of control, not alive in itself, but mediating different systems--the way things get organized
PaulHz: Pygmalion and Galatea--P the sculptor creates an ideal form
nell: oh, it's pygmalion's creation, I see
Simon: PaulHz: "language seen primarily as a form of control, not alive in itself, but mediating different systems--the way things get organize"
Simon: nice! I'm working on a project right now where language capability induces emergent sociality
PaulHz: ? also that language doesn't serve us for conveying information--esp in the educational process--so much as for transimitting orders
Simon: thanks Paul, I forgot the details
amanda: .... frankenstein's monster .. trying to function with the memory of many cells with different histories
PaulHz: Oh, time for biological necessities to intervene--if I don't go to lunch I amy also lose a friend...
Simon: DEpends on how you define language: as spoken text or as bodily expression etc
nell: amanda, what a lovely description of the frankenstein image, nevery thought much about it at the cellular level
nell: simon, do you mean you'll teach machines language, see what behaviour emerges?
amanda: thanx nell ... if frankenstein had had some body mind centering sessions he may have got on along better and our fears may have been abated
Simon: nell: robots actually
nell: amanda. lol, yes he could have used some guidance
nell: simon, will the robots learn to speak?
Simon: nell: well, in their own way
doppelRob: robots already speak. Will we understand them?
nell: in their own language then. will we understand them?
krueger: what's the behavior to be on the social level]
Simon: amanda: no need to go to the cellular if one understands *thinking* as bodily
doppelRob: Or circular if one understands thinking badly.
Simon: Krueger: don't know yet, its emergent (!)
doppelRob: sorry :)
nell: yes, we're being quite circular here
krueger: from the robot or within the situation
Simon: itsa circulatory system...
krueger: fer sur
nell: everyone think round thoughts and we'll see what emerges
Simon: Actually more like parallael processing or threads....
doppelRob: parable processing? Whith all his talk of Franenstein...
Simon: probable parsing?
krueger: so the social is conceived of as a unit with state as well as the machine
amanda: language loops
doppelRob: ..stuck in an infinite one.
Simon: krueger: "so the social is conceived of as a unit with state as well as the machine: : come again?
doppelRob: Oh, apologies to CS people, non-terminating ones.
krueger: do you see the project as two interactng systems each of which has state and drives state changes in the other
Simon: no: classic emergence: state type entities on a 'low' level give rise to emergent group behavior (not bee-hive-ior)
nell: oh yes, information is of course negative entropy. I think we're into negentropic language use here, emergent of course.
krueger: member of this group are?
Simon: scions of petit mal
nell: oh simon, obscurantism
krueger: humans out of the conversation...
Simon: sorry all: Petit Mal is a robot I built. i'm now building a group of them
Simon: humans are there, but as features of the landscape
nell: krueger, were you tyring to defend humans there, in your other system with its own state? oh well
krueger: no
nell: ah. I misunderstood.
Simon: sorry all: didn't mean to toot my trumpet,
krueger: just trying to understand the point at which simon in working the social
nell: but Simon, humans will be interpreting all of this, so they must be more than features of the landscape
nell: krueger, right I think we're thinking the same thing in a way krueger: simon not to worry this is of interest
Simon: ok: "conventional" emergent order stuff uses the colonial insect analogy, some folks are looking at higher order organisation: emergent sociality, autonomous agents with social behavior...
krueger: is there any meaning in this behavior?
Simon: nell: I mean, the robots have their own language, they speak about but not to us folk
amanda: and we, Simon? we get to listen in?
nell: yes I would ask the same question as krueger then
krueger: not from the human side of course we will make our own
Simon: no, we don't get to listen in, we just watch and interpret, like we do when we watch a flock of ducks or fish in an aquarium
doppelRob: Simon - I have spent some time 'thinking' about this. I too have made some machine with a similar purpose.
doppelRob: In fact, I'm struggling with two of them right now :)
nell: ah krueger, now that's the most interesting question I think as do many interesting philosophers of alife and such these days. how do the agents interpret each other?
krueger: hope ya win
doppelRob: Too much emphasis is placed on behavior in the individual.
Simon: nell: how do the agents interpret each other? indeed
doppelRob: What to me is interesting is behavior in the society, development of a lingual codex and an emergent historical culture.
Simon: to continue: do the agents have any self knowledge: of course not
Simon: DoppelRob: go on...
nell: doppelRob, "development" is a loaded word because there have to be some rules already predetermined for it to happen
doppelRob: kreuger - It's a losing battle. Damn minds of their own! ;)
doppelRob: nell - yes, I had to give structure to the databases they use, the databases exist on a Unix fie system etc.
amanda: that's life as I know it doppelRob:)
krueger: well i'm trying to think about autonomy and mind can we even think of these terms w/ respect to artificial systems
doppelRob: What is more important is how free the algorithms are to adapt the structures given to them. It's a tough problem.
Simon: doppelRob: I thought you were talking about your kids!
Simon: DoppelRob: I had to give structure to the databases they use,
krueger: mind children...
doppelRob: virtual children.
Simon: aye, there's the rub: can you build a system with no primitives?
doppelRob: simon - I doubt it. Even biology get's hints from chemistry, which in turn gets guidance from physics.
Simon: I mean, various alternative/emergent/subsumption approaches just suceed in moving the primitives down a level: not explicit behaviors but components of behaviors... etc
Simon: so do you accept an equivalence of life and Alife at some basic hardware information level?
doppelRob: Simon - sorry, had to answer the door.
nell: for me that's an impossibility. biology is always telling us more about "life", that feeds alife, and vice versa. so equivalence doesn't really do it.
krueger: in practice today, no in principle undecided
Simon: damn real world !:)
doppelRob: simon - yes. I do. There are always some hard coded primitives.
Simon: heavy duty Rob!
nell: yeah, very heavy duty.
doppelRob: simon - oh, I'm not talking about the 'establishment'
nell: thing is, there are always *new* primitives in the chemical/biological world, that's the project of science. so how can we say that we've hardwired them?
Simon: Rob: Can you elaborate
doppelRob: Nell - Science is the pursuit of natural knowledge. We can only build models. Most of out models are quite rough. Nature will allways throw us surprises.
krueger: after all were in it for the surprises
nell: yeah. if you say that, then where's the equivalence (life and alife?)
Simon: nell: right. I had a theory that scienctific fact is generated somehow as a bowater effect of enquiring minds: the edge of reality stays just over the horizon
doppelRob: Alife has to evolve stochasticly. That's where it gets undeterminable. The magic is in the iterations. Not the initial conditions.
nell: Simon, I think that for all my allegiance to critical analysis of science, I think it *discovers*
nell: doppelRob, in what is generally called emergence.
nell: gee, we're not expressing much in the way of fear here. enthusiasm and curiosity, I'd say.
doppelRob: 'Real' life has it's own primitives, we may just not know their finesse. But once again, the magic is in the iteration. That's what separates a hyacynth (sp?) from a polymer chain.
Simon: bow-water: the wave ahed of the bow of a boat
Simon: but the initial conditions determine the (general form of the) evolution
krueger: seems that the magic is in the rule structuring the transformations
nell: some in complexity theory (like S. Kauffman inparticular) say that natural selection works on implicit order to shape order and form
doppelRob: krueger - I think that 'real' life can (and does) change the rules. Alife should do the same.
nell: change the rules according to what doppelRob?
Robert: I've killed of my original and assumed his place.
nell: change the rules according to what, Robert? (who has just changed his rules)
Simon: I hate to give evidence to the 'hardwired primitives' school, but i heard a paper recently which indicated that when a baby chimp sees its mother's, say left elbow move, it fires a specific neurone. Thus: a hardwired perceptual homunculus. Not only that, but the chimps own elbow muscles also fired: hardwired learning by imitation!!!
nell: Simon, but finding out such things doesn't tell us much about what levels of perception/behaviour are hardwired, just that some are.
Simon: goon...
Robert: nell - the 'program'. Our genetic program is subject to change by, in the past, cosmic ray, more recently, human intervention. English was not coded into to genes, we had to develop it.
Simon: I mean go on...
nell: ah, goon, yes
Robert: nell - please, no name calling ;)
Simon: goon: no, _go_on_...(please)
amanda: my chimps r making it difficult for me to follow the flow ...
Robert: By developing language, and technology, specifically medical, we have obviated much of the 'rules' of our genes.
Robert: Our 'program' as modern humans is very differnt than it was even in say, the 1500's
nell: right. ;) Simon, you imply that by ascribing to "hardwired primitives" thought that it might subsume other ideas. I wonder why ideas have to come across as so competitive?
Simon: nell: what do you mean:"levels of perception"?
amanda: and the tamagouchi is peeping
Simon: Robert:" Our 'program' as modern humans is very differnt than it was even in say, the 1500's" I don't buy that at all
Robert: We humans 'self-modify' out genetic program. People weren't meant to live quite as long as we do, otherwise, we'd get more sets of teeth etc.
nell: simon, I just meant the perceptual process involved in the chimp story, it sees the elbow action first.
amanda: I'm not sure what humans were meant to do ... back to belief
nell: Robert, I totally agree. our genome itself is evolving all the time. do you know about the Baldwin effect, about the impact of learning on the genes? it's not Lamarckism, but admits that learning has an effect over the span of generations.
Robert: amanda - anything they want. That's what 'self-modifying code' is all about.
nell: amanda, sorry your connect is slow. keep trying. is your tamagochi there with you?
Robert: krueger - what's going on with your system?
nell: we're having fun, at least I am.
amanda: yes it's here and alive and kicking
Simon: Nell: The experiment indicated clearly to me that, shall we say, the childs growing of knowledge of its own body is not 'emergent' but hardwired, pathways do not have to be developed (in this basic percetuo-motor process). So they are hardwired primitives
nell: amanda, how old is it?
amanda: hang on I'll see...1 year and 0.9 kilos
nell: oh amanda, well done.
(Here begins the long "epilogue" of hi's and bye's)
rafael: I have here Knowbotic research, BIT, and other fun artists
rafael: they want to say hi to you all on the webcam...
nell: hello knowbotics, hello BIT
amanda: Hi knowbotickers
Robert: hello knowbotics
Robert: hello BIT
Simon: hello know/bits
tkrueger: hello art units
rafael: I want to thank you for participating....we are drunk on gluhwein,
rafael: which turns out to be heated sangria...
nell: yes, thank you all. oh you're drunk, no fair.
Robert: Wish I was there...
Simon: rafa: it was really fun, maybe we can do this again?
Simon: nell: did youblog?
Simon: I mean log
nell: yes, can't you teletransport us now? we've been so good.
rafael: lets do it again sometime soon!
tkrueger: F2F is better
nell: yes I bloggedit all
rafael: what should the theme be? mavbe LOVE!
tkrueger: hope so...
nell: not fear at the end of love, though...
rafael: lol
tkrueger: love @end fear
nell: ah tkrueger, excellent
amanda: heehee
rafael: Susie says hi and bye...
nell: susie, big hugs
Robert: hola susie
Robert: Who is susie?
Simon: hola susie
tkrueger: thanks much rafeal!
nell: susie and rafa, rafa and susie
Simon: felix says hi
nell: felix, kisses
rafael: hi felix
Robert: hola felix
amanda: hia susie, per waving 2 u too
rafael: I love all these his
rafael: I mean HI's
Simon: so much for _fear_!
nell: highs
nell: simo, can felix type yet?
Robert: fear at the end of fear?
tkrueger: a great success wish the connect would have allowed image
nell: is maria there too?
Simon: no, but he sat on my knee for a while and watched
rafael: reminds me of DJs "a shout out to my homeboy simon penny", for example
tkrueger: Hi to maria from ted
nell: all right!
rafael: And from Graz to Maria, enough respect!
Simon: maria has been in and out: real world deadlines...
nell: we're having that end of the party feeling, would like to pop some champagen
nell: champagan
Simon: chimp again?
rafael: I love champ pagan
tkrueger: champagen rituals!
rafael: champager
rafael: soorry
nell: champs again
Simon: chumps again
nell: lol and then some
tkrueger: will practice typing skills befroe the next one
nell: yes, that's a fine idea. rafa, will you sign us off then?
tkrueger: bye all
Simon: its been fun, bye you all
rafael: You all... we gotta go, but you are welcome to stay and continue the lovely greetings, again, thanks a ton and keep an eye on the
website for proceedings and so on...
nell: bye tkrueger and simon
Robert: happy chanp pagan all.
amanda: well drink some champagne for me too
amanda: bye all
nell: bye amadna. will do.
rafael: bye all!!! from all of us...SAD!
Robert: bye amanda
Robert: bye rafael
Simon: rafa: keep us posted
tkrueger: simon I await the new work besto luck
nell: bye bye. see you again. rafe, will call you, yes?
Simon: will the website carry snapshots at some point?
rafael: yes snaphots!
Simon: Ted: thanks bud, its early days yet, big project, send advice
tkrueger: where will it all end..
tkrueger: teds out
Simon: nell: keep in touch
nell: simon, yes I'll mail about what I'm woirking on.
nell: hi to all there.
Simon: ok, this is the moment when we have our coats on and the front door is open and it late...
Simon: please (send info on your current projects)
nell: simon will do, I hve some developing overlapping interests with yours
Simon: surprise surprise
Robert: Nice to chat Simon.
Simon: we miss you
Simon: robert: nice too, hope we can do it again
nell: simon, miss you too. sigh. will look forward to visit.
Simon: CAA
nell: yes CAA. a little while still.
Simon: ok, bye all
*** Signoff: building (EOF From client)
Robert: bye Building
nell: that's bizarre isnt' it?
Robert: who was Building?
nell: beats me.
nell: okay must go get some groceries now. see ya.
Robert: To which 'bizarre'ism are you refering?
nell: the building signing off, anthropomorphized.
Robert: Oh yes. Yeesh. Perhaps it was the feed to the projector?
nell: that would make sense.
Robert: I am so glad. I so infrequently do ;>
Log file closed at: 11/15/97 4:28:49 PM
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