NOVEMBER 14, 1997Channel operator: Nell Tenhaaf
Log file opened at: 11/14/97 11:56:18 AM
rafael: nell, vuk is joining us from ljubjana and viceversa
vuk: true
nell: great!
*** nell has set the topic on channel #fear to fear at the end of art
vuk: ok, where are you?
nell: I'm in Toronto, Canada
vuk: i saw misiano, he is a Victor and is from Russia, a big country
nell: I think my connection is better today, at least so far. who is misiano?
vuk: oh, he is a russian version of Achile Bonito Oliva, like a biggest curator mafioso available and also Weibl is here today, tomorrow I am taking him to my place here to show him the real tough art - he goes for tough
nell: what do you mean by "here" exactly? oh I see, you mean "there" where you are, tough art by tough people?
vuk: and that here, and the other here - the viceversa place raf and i have scientificaly defined a minute ago
vuk: toughest possible... or something
nell: teleabsence...
vuk: kinda teleabsence
nell: was just checking the building. what is that lovely pattern, is that now irc projection?
rafael: the pattern on the building is our screen saver... it happens when no one is interacting
rafael: today we had Marcos Novak here
vuk: aha, and we had alexander brener here, so i win
nell: we have no one here, but next week we have Thierry de Duve..
rafael: ok, but we had knowbotic research...
rafael: namedropping competition!
vuk: hmm, we're having CAE in few days, so it is lunch AND dinner
vuk: sorry for the funny talk, the day is a bit crooked in ljubljana
nell: vuk, how is it "crooked" for you?
vuk: it is all white here
nell: snow? here too
vuk: was in too many interaction, on other people's projects... and got other people's bad points, so to say
nell: I know this will sound ignorant but where exactly is ljublijana?
vuk: oh, it is a metropolis of Slovenia, with 300 Kpeople, nice place, sorta, only dull sometimes
nell: ah. well all places are dull sometimes. are there a lot of artists?
vuk: i would say so, there's actually a major show tonight, a cont. art triennale, only it's slovenian art, not art in slovenia... which excludes me. I am not ethnicaly Slovene, so this is an interesting evening for me to talk to you guys about the end of art
nell: well talk away. what do you think about it?
vuk: as if it were end of distribution, of representation (god forbid)
nell: who describes it that waY?
vuk: hmm, was there to see the installing of it, since i did most of the web.sites with the featured artists, looks a bit sad, but it is defined nationaly since 3 years ago..
nell: it's all based on nationality, and on web sites. who is determinig these things?
vuk: and Weibel is curating it this year, hihi, ethnic is like gender, destiny stuff - bad to judge... while merit is darwinistic.
vuk: no answer
nell: what would you prefer as a curating strategy then?
vuk: random, or no curating, or IQ, or a mix, curating is a problem, I would do it on human quality myself, so no work if no previous contact
nell: don't understand what you mean, no contact with a curator?
vuk: sorry for this cripto typing, i mean that i (the potential curator) wouldn't work with artists before contact, and of course interaction of some investigative kind
nell: ah, so humana rapport between curator and artist. I agree. but then it can all become very clubby.
rerlich: Fear of artists?
vuk: club is great, getto too, or what "Immediatism" was about, the Bey stuff. Artists ARE the danger for the survival of art system, therefore they should be banned from it
nell: you mean people of like mind? speak about immediatism, vuk
nell: I'm liking your portrait of artists as subversive. is that what you mean, robert?
vuk: yes nell, something like art for artists, existing in paralel with the sistem art, shit, i lost it who's robert?
nell: oh, sorry. robert is rerlich, here in toronto also. works with robotics.
rerlich: Robert - myself. Person from Toronto.
vuk: ok ok, sorry, just didn't get it
vuk: ho toronto, got relatives there, but everybody does these days
vuk: so, robert, what is this about subversive self portraits please?
rerlich: I used to have relatives in Laibach, as it was called then...
vuk: ahaa, and I am from Belgrade, Serbia, where Laibach is supposed to have a concert tonight... twilight zone
rerlich: Subversive self portraits? Oh my, confusing my proletariate sensibilities...
vuk: just blending some words, nothing personal... there's this Zizek theorist that talks of subvesive mirror as an artists strategy
rerlich: I wouldn't venture to apply 'artist' to myself, although I feel there may be a 'subversive' element to my work.
vuk: nell, here's a big hello to students, i like young people
nell: how old are you then, vuk? (question from students)
vuk: is anybody prepared to admit being an artist at all?
vuk: 31 old
nell: I certainly am an artist, and we all are here in this room
vuk: exactly, and so is an accidental IRCer that might pass by
rerlich: Are you a subversive artist, Nell?
vuk: why don't we invite someone?
nell: so we're artists by virtue of being here? that's fine with me.
vuk: yes nell, this is how i see this, and if you wish I could fax you a written confirmation (receipt?)
rerlich: Have your students anything to type?
nell: I'm setting them up on another machine right now.
vuk: how many students on this one machine ?
nell: they should be interested in "the end of art" as they're just starting out. there'll be two at least.
vuk: did you tell them not to worry, or someone is realy discontinuing your faculty?
nell: oh no, nothing like that. it's a conceptual challenge of what one calls art and artist, as we're discussing
vuk: right, well dear students, this is not going to be the last evening of your academic life after all...
tank: Vuk, we're glad that we intrigue you so. We are very interested in persuing this avenue of discussion.
vuk: ok tank, such an appropriate name, i think
nell: krueger, do you wish to comment on our topic?
vuk: ozark sounds way to central to me
nell: do you fear the end of art?
vuk: we are closely watching each other's face, waiting for the first statement
nell: my fear is that official art will swallow up whatever I might have to say before I even get it out, fear of the institution
tank: We feel no fear because art won't end
vuk: word art spreads well over all activity, and if it does not in this it will in next next generation, or all activity will shrink to the art territory, thus comfoming with my theory
vuk: is anything happening at the display if not in the channel?
rerlich: I fear codification and objectification.
nell: sorry, just opened up the webcam image for tank
nell: codification: we had a big discussion about that in class this morning. it's one way of saying image replaces the real, culture replaces nature, simulation supersedes all
vuk: the cod. & obj. exist only in the existing pre-net sistem, we hav good tools now, maybe it might change things?
krueger: so this end of Art... is this something that we should take as a task to be accomplished?
vuk: no automatic myoptimism about tech, but there's good sides to it in this kind of fight
krueger: of is it an inevitability
nell: I'm very for tech, fight fire with fire
tank: Risking codification is risking your opportunity to be recognized. Unfortunately, the more recognized you become, the more codifiable you will become.
nell: inevitability is fatalistic, progress is modernist utopic - so naming does become quite key here.
vuk: right, but avoiding comodification, you get more oportunity to live a decent life of a human
nell: do you mean codification, or are you switching topic to commodification?
vuk: just expanding it, since it so nicely fits, specialy with missspelling
rerlich: Commodification is a natural extension.
vuk: extintion? oops, now i know, commodification is a leftist term, so sorry
krueger: ozark is quite far away from everything
vuk: hihi, how's the art market in ozark?
tank: I tend to agree with you. Although I think that it is dangerous to extend definitions as though they were synonyms.
rerlich: When everything has a price and exists for sale in a catalog, what remains free?
vuk: very true, thanx for reminding me of pun.art
vuk: there is this ancient (probably not exclusively european) story of 'gift economy', with a 'network of trust' idea attached
nell: we'll never separate art from market, that makes me rather anxious because of pressure to perform in that arena. anxiety, not fear.
nell: the west coast indians of north america have potlatch, a gift economy, exchange of goods and objects for community's sake.
vuk: this talk is happening in a strictly defined art situation, leaning on technology someone payed...
tank: Fear and anxiety can really focus you and sometimes it is not a bad thing, if that is what compels you.
nell: vuk, expand please, don't see where you're headed.
rerlich: A bit bleak to be motivated by fear and anxiety, non?
krueger: I question that culture replaces nature, it seem to be only a subset of it, though growing
rerlich: Politicly, these are the motiators of reaction.
vuk: just killing an argument that developes out of this situationist blabla i gave you all here, an apology more than anything else
tank: Motivation does not soley extend from fear. It is that anxiety and fear can redirect you and not necessarily stop you in your tracks
rerlich: M O T I V A T O R S - bay typing...
nell: I do think it's important to talk about the possibility of eliciting reactionary responses, robert (robert is rerlich); often the line between that and more desirable political effects is thin
rerlich: B A D - I'm at "work" and a bit distracted.
tank: Welcome AM
tank: AM, we are discussing fear at the end of art. Please help us define our territory!
vuk: gotcha
nell: I'm going to log off and back on again, try for a better connection. be right back.
Log file closed at: 11/14/97 12:59:10 PM
Log file opened at: 11/14/97 1:01:18 PM
vuk: so, this free tech, or some non.proprietary model of access to means might be cool
rerlich: What is the soros foundation? Who's pockets is it in? I am very suspicious of such things.
vuk: and to go back to that same line, there's also models of work out of art sistem, and with still keeping art there
vuk: sure robert, soros foundation is George Soros, one fat rich guy from Wall Street that pumps half billion US$ yearly in Eastern Europe
nell: does Soros fund anything good, vuk? I have some Lithuatian friends who are quite keen, getting some money for their art and such
vuk: hmm, yes, i hate making this sound like publicity, but it actually does, in about 25 countries
krueger: a social structure not without its dark side it was no utopia
vuk: tell Lithuanians to call Open Society Foundation there, or check the web for soros.org
nell: fear at the beginning of art, how to see projects and get going and get onto the scene
rerlich: I am *fearful* of combining economics with "art". Peronally, I strive (hard) to maintain the distinction.
nell: yes, I agree, robert. but that institution is bigger than both of us.
vuk: the problem is that economics *objectively* interfaces heavily with any activity, and art is somehow identified as most willing to do it hard
rerlich: We can still strive.
vuk: and the *question* is thus how you deal with it, and not whether it is going on, the art cash thing
tank: As students, in order to break into this world of art, we need to fund our education :( Therefore it is very imp't to discuss economics in relation to where we are and how much freedom we have to expand our artistic integrity.
nell: yes, artists historically will do without, make do with little, all that. are the ones who make it big corrupted? does this matter?
krueger: seems to hinge on ones objectives work within or from the outside
rerlich: To some.
vuk: size does matter, a little
vuk: hey tank, leave school, study useful stuff for survival, and do a lot of art.
rerlich: Tank - Yes an unfourtunate reality, money and education.
krueger: It does matter if one set up the position in ones art as being critical of the economic parameters
nell: all the big NY artists are making films now, it's very a la mode. reaches a bigger public of course. changes the image of who artists are. but it all depends on money, to them money is transparent because they have it, it's a strange kind of artifice.
rerlich: Leaving school and "studying something useful for survival" buys into yet another system. Caterus Parebus.
vuk: it matters a hell of a lot to this particular me here, of course, and in this part of europe with the war and shit in the neighbourhood, it is important whether your work is in touch with things or it's just making of nice things
tank: Indeed, it would be wonderful to deny reality and leave this institutional framework. . . although, persueing art relies heavily on "success" for survival, therefore, economics. Education is vital in order to maintain living standards and hopefully we will be able to persue artistic avenues on the side.
vuk: yeah, but you get out of art school, and that can't be too bad
rerlich: "making nice things" vs. "making meaningful things" and interesting dichotomy.
vuk: yeap, false too a little bit
nell: to me that matters everywhere, in every location, what you buy into. although yes, it is more urgent in a way in places where there's upheaval. think of the dadists during and after WW1. just a very hard problem to have it be present somehow in your work
nell: to have your social or economic concerns be present, that is.
rerlich: Tank - You have bought the line Canadian Society has given you.
vuk: looking for a nice way to say that a system without art mediation and cash might be a nice place, maybe
rerlich: Never let school interfere with you education (yes, yes, on overstated cliche, but one I feel is valid)
krueger: The architects, I am one, have to deal with this economic thing on a daily basis. Producing for the benifit of those with power and the cash drove me out of practice and into the academy
vuk: out of my mind and into art
krueger: It has to do directly with controlling the meals to realize ones work
vuk: cooks are very important here
krueger: Means of production, which are always removed in the architectural world
vuk: i do net.art, much easier in terms of owning means, but not perfect
tank: If there was one perfect form for artistic representation, there would be no need to expand into new territory
vuk: bingo
nell: krueger, do you find the academy a more fruitful place to pursue ideas? sometimes I wonder about that. there is some space for varying your practice at least.
rerlich: Digression - With our level of technology, shortages need not exist.
vuk: robert - except, of course, shortage of technology
rerlich: An instrument of control.
vuk: more you need it, more you buy
nell: robert, do you think artistic endeavour or the creative world should be involved with that kind of issue, of economics and supply? people certainly object to that kind of idea -- art as politics as art.
tank: tools for self mastery? available in an institutional environment?
rerlich: Don't buy! Own, create! The detritus of even ten years ago has fantastic potential. All it wants is some ownership.
rerlich: Economics and supply are used as instruments of control. From what I understand, Kreuger left architecture for those reasons. It is thus a concern.
krueger: seems to be about means of distribution of ideas
vuk: try net.art
vuk: digression - i read somewhere that 2% of wold population has access to phone, anybody can confirm?
tank: If you want to talk about property . . . that implies reliance on a political system and it's economic foundation to propel art. Where does this leave us in our concerns for transitions in art? How far have we moved away from any organic origins for artistic exploration?
vuk: organic is great, and now it only mixes with tech intensively... but all this Stelarc and SRL work is about organic
krueger: academy is way far from ideal. It is possible to work the edges more easily from here than from traditional practice
tank: Being relatively new to New Media and what it has to offer, I am hesitant to trust it as a successful form of expression. I feel as though there are too many outlets for external control and domination
rerlich: Tank - Yes, absolutely. I constantly find myself questioning the materials I work with.
vuk: there's ways and ways of using net stuff in art practice
vuk: external control as a problem influences only the idea of 'completed' work, but can be great in processes, even desired
nell: krueger, do you say that because you have some economic security and so can shift about? (we know your connection's slow, we're keeping your topics in mind)
krueger: it is about control and for me was also about being part of the building of a cultural inertia
tank: I hoe to discover these possibilities vuk. This type of forum is encouraging. It helps me to overcome fear of the technology
vuk: hihi
rerlich: Tank - A metric to use is the amount one pays for materials and to whom one pays it.
vuk: there's a lot of first generation crap around (remember early video) but also some true groundbreaking stuff
vuk: (i like 'type of forum')
nell: vuk, you're implying you don't like first generation video. indeed, some of it was endlessly endless, but some of it was great.
nell: vito acconci mumbling for five hours straight...
vuk: exactly, some was simply marvelously freeminded, you know, art, ok ok, vito exagerated a bit, but there's paik magnet stuff, and all those crazy polish guys
nell: what's good on the net? robert, you should talk about mexico here, tell the others what you're doing.
tank: Thanx a lot. But I really must sign off. It is snowing outside like crazy and it is a long and cold walk home. Krueger, I hope that you catch up and are able to get enough feed back. Vuk, You aren't that old. And Robert, thank-you for keeping in mind that there is a place to begin with nothing. Signing off.
vuk: tank - vuk@ljudmila.org ring me sometimes, was nice
krueger: The trailing edge of technology has enormous potential
vuk: so, what's good on the net? should i give urls?
krueger: the organic as a model is potentially very rich, I think tank was referring to organic as in a integrated part of the culture this is not an easy one today
rerlich: krueger - The trailing edge of technology often spawns ripples that overtake the leading edge.
vuk: i am working on ascii video conferencing software here
rerlich: The 'Leading Edge' tends to be industry, and therefore market (or what the industry percieves as market) driven.
rerlich: Innovation is more often than not excluded from the process.
nell: I have a student that does "visual basic" programming to run animations, she apologizes for this and I say, no no keep going
vuk: leonardo was praised for his sraftmanship, and was rare in his time, today's tech artist have a whole strata of tech science laughing at them...
rerlich: Nell - Why does she apologize?
vuk: how old is she?
nell: because she feels she's "behind"
rerlich: Nell - behind what? Put her on!
vuk: silly, she's probably doing the most exciting thing around... would she maybe prefer to have a SGI tattoo on forehead/
krueger: Economic considerations are key, I find that self funding is the only way to retain control over the direction of the investigations. This is to some extent what the academic system can offer, there is also the occasional kinderd spirit...
nell: no she's not here, sorry, but it would be good to persuade her to drop her biases I think
rerlich: Nell - what is far more important than mastering someone's expensive software, to be a talented 'user', is to take control,
vuk: yes krueger, and this scales with the size of production your art requires, film is similar problem as architecture, I guess, shit, time is a problem too, there's this thing starting in 15 min here, gota go soon
rerlich: if she is solving problems by herself to get her work done, she is doing far more than any Alias jockey. She has ownership.
rerlich: That ability is transferable, and is therefore 'ahead'.
nell: I'll pass those words on to her. I'm quite envious of her skills myself, better than any off-the-shelf world I think.
nell: I have a friend who teaches digital art in boston, he'll use ony low-end equipment like apple llc's, at least last time I checked in a few year ago
rerlich: Nell - There is an "inside/outside" to using tech. The "outside" changes fast, and not allways for the better.
nell: uh huh, and the inside?
rerlich: The "inside", what's behing your eyes, can only grow. I suppose this is true 'bout any area of human activity.
nell: it grows in relation to what it perceives, and makes some sense of... this is why I'm so interested in subjectivity in relation to science and tech, how are those practices implicitly subjective...
rerlich: The "inside" is a far more flexible tool, a timeless one, in fact.
nell: do you think there's an "inside" to everything, whether living, organic or inorganic?
rerlich: Tech *is* subjective. Microsoft decides Win95 is *the* operating environment. Many people believe them. This is clearly not an objective view.
nell: right. but it takes on a kind of mask of objectivity, the traditional authority of objectivity
krueger: the trailing edge gives one capacity at an attractive price inovation with the tools available is the key. this concept of craft can be applied to new media as well as the old ones but i fear that its moving so fast that we spend too much o
rerlich: Many years ago, when I studied physics, it became clear that although the science may have been objetive,
krueger: time learning how to use it and less what to use it for
rerlich: throwing humans into the mix lead to *very* subjective results.
rerlich: People decide what's credible, what's not. Regardless of experimental evidence or rigourous mathematical proof.
rerlich: Nell - which is why, with tech I have to ask how much it costs, and who gets my money.
nell: people interpret and decide everything. what I'd like is that more people learn to connect this "habit" with their inner life, figure out what they're doing a bit more...
nell: hello mark. I'm changing the topic right now...
*** nell has set the topic on channel #fear to fear at the end of
geography
nell: I'm interested in re-launching the topic of "coming from nowhere" that we were discussing on, I think, day one.
nell: hello Andreas. topic is fear at the end of geography. do you consider that you are from "somewhere"?
rerlich: Nell - can you bring us up to speed?
nell: let me go get my log...
Andreas: No. In the past few years I've been a resident of at least 6 countries. I have no idea where I am from. And it does not matter.
rerlich: Are countries geographic entities, or sociological ones?
nell: there ya go, that'll do as topic, my log here doesn't have that discussion and my memory gets me as far as question...
Andreas: I think it depends on which country. Some are more sociological than others.
nell: so Andreas, you don't feel that you need a geographical fix on identity, a location that is part of your makeup?
Andreas: Yes, I certainly do. At the moments its Sweden. 10 months ago it was Northern Cyprus, which according to the World body, does not exist.
nell: hmmm, that's an interesting issue. some geographical entities have become sociological ones, like quebec in canada.
rerlich: Or what somw call Kurdistan S O M E - damed work distractions.
nell: some geographies are concepts
Andreas: Yes. Again, North Cyprus really brought up odd issues of place, nation, nationality and etc..
rerlich: Atlantis? Are not all geographies real? Is it not borders that are concepts?
Andreas: Borders are concepts, sure. But they certainly carry around some pretty hefty realities.
rerlich: Yes, but only because we, as a species, agree to them. Mountains and Oceans aren't place by convention.
rerlich: P L A C E D
nell: what I meant by geographies are concepts was, thinking of quebec, that the concept of nation can excule certain parts of the physical territory that don't conform. a bit convoluted, I know.
Andreas: Yes, that's true. But that still does not mean that borders don't effect us as a species in so-called real ways. I wish they wouldn't. But they do. Not all of us, however. I'm lucky. I have two passports, which means borders are much less real for me.
rerlich: Yes, mountains and oceans do not point rifles at you. I am an idealist to think that we can dissolve national borders.
rerlich: Should that happen, other ones will be re-enforced.
rerlich: (social, economic)
Andreas: Well, I would also like to dissolve national borders. But I can't see it happening anytime soon. Just take a look at any newspaper.
Andreas: To get rid of border we would have to wipe away concepts such as identity, race, religion, ethnic purity etc etc. Then there is, of course, the spectre of economic rationalism to consider.
rerlich: Odd that the trend in a large part of Europe in the late twentieth century is a replay of the late ninteenth century.
Andreas: What do you mean?
rerlich: The nations comprising the very late Austro-Hungarian empire sought 'national' identities 'bout hundred years ago. With the changes in the 'east bloc' countries, the same process has taken place.
Andreas: I see. Some of the results of that process are certainly something to be afraid of.
rerlich: Andreas - I don't believe 'Identity' has to be dispelled (or homogenized).
nell: yes, this is an aside to the discussion but -- I find that repetition of fin-de-siecle activity really interesting on a number of fronts. my favorite example is hysteria, a late-nineteenth c. "women's disease" being rather like the out-of-body experience of VR
rerlich: National borders give rise to a siege mentality and 'nationalism'.
nell: people say that old tribalisms underlie much of the national re-structuring we're seeing now.
Andreas: I think by identity I mean national identity. And yes, they certainly do give rise to siege metality and nationalism. I've seen it first hand. I'm certainly not defending the concept of borders. I'm just pessimistic of their demise during my lifetime.
rerlich: Nell - this is perhaps not the forum, but I *strongly* disagree. Old triblaisms are a convenient excuse.
rerlich: (as a diplace Ostrogoth ;)
nell: oh that's interesting, robert. so mythologies as an excuse for political manoeuvering, is that what you mean?
rerlich: Andreas - If you are < 40, then they might occur. In my grandparents' lifetime, cataclysmic changes have taken place.
nell: Andreas, do you have a response to tribalism?
rerlich: When they were born, there were absolute monarchs in Europe. Russia and Japan were nearly feudal societies.
rerlich: If these changes can occur, why not ones as 'radical' as the dissolution of national borders.
Andreas: Well, I'll keep my fingers crossed. As for tribalism, I would suspect that part of their effect is often contrived and mutated by other factors such as economics, nationalism and so forth. But I may be misunderstanding what you mean by tribalism. I think the context of the term needs clarifacation. At least for me.
rerlich: Yes, a common frame would be helpful, Nell?
Andreas: But Rerlich, despite all those changes, the concept and effect of borders still remained.
Andreas: REMAINS
nell: Roc is in Barcelon, *not* Spain. Am I right, Roc? (hope that's not too provocative a thing to say)
nell: BarcelonA
rerlich: Ah, Catalonia. What a wonderful place.
nell: I simply meant that the sense of belonging to a people, or tribe, of longstanding history and culture can supersede current national borders.
rerlich: Andreas - Borders have changed in their meaning since then. In 1912, borders were absolute. Travell of people, goods and concepts was but a trickle.
Roc: It's Friday, I'm tired to talk about that... but as I see it it is only a matter of not being from anywhere in particular... as we said the other day... no external roots.
Andreas: That's true. The Romanies are a good example.
rerlich: We now have orders of magnitude more freedom. 85 years. What will it be like in fifty more.
Andreas: Ok. But think about the Mexican US border. Some would certainly like that to be absolute!
nell: there's currently an interesting nafta (north american free trade assoc.) issue happening here, about our three great nations trying to work as an overall concept...
rerlich: Some yes. With the signing of the NAFTA accord, more exchange is happeing, although economic, it has a strong social influence.
Andreas: Perhaps border will become less land based. But other borders will exist, especially economic ones.
nell: the southern u.s. states want to control illegal immigrants from mexico, don't want to spend money on them, so they want to institute border checks -- consisting of tracking when in and when out -- for all mexicans *and* all canadians, just to be fair
rerlich: Andreas - yes, I agree, but if we can improve access to information.
nell: of course, the northern u.s. states *want* canadians to come in, good for the economy, so the whole thing is becoming rather an awkward racial discussion. it's on hold for the moment.
Andreas: And even today, if you have the wrong passport, borders are still nearly inpenetrable. Some of my Turkish friends have a hell of a time going anywhere outside their country.
Andreas: But don't borders and race go "together?"
rerlich: Ideas can be quite infectious.
rerlich: Andreas - Yes, but 80 years ago, they would have trouble travelling *within* Turkey.
rerlich: Things today are far from ideal, but if one zooms out a power or two, the pace of change is improving for the better. Imagine travell in Europe three hundred years ago.
rerlich: Or a thousand.
Andreas: True. I won't deny that things are improving. An you are right, information is key to "infecting" change.
rerlich: (Well, we Ostrogoths seemed to do OK :o)
nell: rerlich, explain Ostrogoth please
rerlich: I the 1910's, western textbooks were regularly stopped from entering Turkey, an insecure, decaying monarchy feared change.
rerlich: During the great migrations, the Goth tribes split into a West (Visigothic) and East (Ostrogothic) branch.
Andreas: Is there an Ostrogothic movement?
nell: rerlich, you must find it strange to have "goth" be such a fashion :)
rerlich: I have recently apropriated it as a transient identity.
rerlich: Nell - Bah, children who have no sense of history! ;->
nell: indeed they don't, they think it has to do with satansim, vampires, and witchcraft. although, hey, maybe they're intuiting something ;)
rerlich: Andreas - The Visigoths were assimilated into Frankish tribes (mostly).
Andreas: As a Canadian, I always feel a bit historically malnutritioned!
nell: ah yes, the nation that never had a revolution.
Andreas: But maybe one day? Would that be something to fear?!
rerlich: The Ostrogoths into various Slavic, Scythian and Roman tribes.
rerlich: I (currently) feel identification with the Ostrogoths of the Panonnian provinces of the Roman empire.
nell: Andreas, I think that subliminally we all hope/fear that quebec will do the revolution for us, then at least we can say we've been through that rather de rigeur historical process
nell: rerlich, past lives??? :))
rerlich: What would a revolution accomplish? An outdated, Romantic institution, non?
Andreas: It would make for good headlines.
nell: it would put us "on the map"
AlainM: Being in Quebec, I guess I could adopt the wished revolutionary voice...
Andreas: But for how long?
nell: AlainM, great, go for it
rafael: I could see in the building that you were discussing borders?
AlainM: Who needs a revolution when deep inside, the difference is assimilated. With globalization and virtuality, we could strive for the affirmation of identity in a virtual construct.
nell: AlainM, that's a very positive idea.
Andreas: AlainM. Yes but only if you have the right gear.
AlainM: tv is part of the gear anyway, and we all have tv
rafael: It is interesting that in Austria they have always been afraid of the expansionist turks, but now it is refugees from ex-yugoslavia that they fear
rerlich: Oh my, is the ghost of 1683 still close the the Austrian Identity?
rafael: the notion of decadence in the austrian empire has brought about both humility but also defensive ness, ?
nell: these fears of people's are on a very material level nowadays, I think moreso than on any abstract level of country/identity as we're talking
rafael: agreed
nell: rerlich, 1683? my history knowledge does not come up to yours.
rerlich: Some of the strongest, most influential work of the twentieth century came out of Austria in that period.
AlainM: In all this, I refer to the book Virtual Geography by McKenzie Wark, in which he describes how, as an Australian, events like the fall of the Berlin wall or the lauch of the Gulf war were emotionally felt
nell: so now we are speaking about emotional response across distance, and also across centuries. a nice paralle.
nell: paralleL
rerlich: The year of the Second Turkish Siege of Vienna. The one that almost succeeded. Thwarted by an international coalition. Any Austrians shed some light?
rerlich: The fall of the Berlin was the (apropriate) metaphore for the end of *overt* oppression. Anyone who saw the wall, particularly in the 80's must have felt something.
rafael: about turkish invasion...the turks never succeded in taking over graz, and their presence was felt only as a shadow, in fact the arsenal that your texts are, being projected upon was, constructed to house the weapons to fend off invasion, now, the arsenal is a museum with tourists, who look at useless weapons as art
AlainM: the strange thing about the Berlin wall is that in a sense, Berlin was more interesting (in a twisted way) before than it is now...
rerlich: Rafael - Not with that arsenal! The invation force, if I remember correctly was concentrated along and near the Danube. With the intent of taking Vienna
rafael: the transformation of weapons into art is one of the most¡s crucial tasks for the artist today, oder?
nell: AlanM, in the concept of virtual geography (I mean in general, I'm not familiar with McKenzie's book), space supersedes time. time is flattened by media, by its virtuality. the Berlin wall for example, is still "there" in some way in its media imprint
AlainM: ...West Berlin being like an Island amidst otherness...
Andreas: Its also there as a "mental" and emotional imprinte. Apparently there is considerable concern among Berliners to preserve what's left of the wall for posterity.
rerlich: Nell - It's still there. Follow the line of new commercial developments. A glorious candy-wrapper line through the center of a unified Berlin. </RANT>
AlainM: Nell, I was refering to the feeling you absorb when you're there in all physicality. For the rest, I agree that the memory imprint still retains all its vividness
nell: indeed, still there in these ways.
Andreas: I saw the candy-wrapper line this summer and it scared me. The faces of the grand architects in the red info box were particularly unnerving.
nell: AlainM, I know what you mean though. that all-night art scene of Kreuzberg (sp?) all but disappeared. although new ones have sprung up, I hear, I haven't been.
Andreas: By the way, is anyone viewing the video wall. There seems to be quite a lot of action over there.
nell: wow, I've been given a vivid image of Berlin, I can *see* what you're saying.
nell: the video wall has been looking very good indeed. I don't see texts in the shadows, except very vaguely, but I assume they're there.
Andreas: Good. Did you ever visit the info box in Berlin. Its a veritable object lesson is how nations can be constructed.
nell: no, I haven't been to Berlin since 1993, and then only very briefly passed through. my best experience was being there in summer 1990 when everything was still in a state of confusion, when "east" was still east.
AlainM: well, things wont be the same again. A very lively techno scene emerged in the abyss between the 2 Berlin, clubs like Tresor (in the vaults an old Bank) and E-werk (old Energy fabrik). Now Tresor will have to move out, perhaps in a new hi
webadmin: Andreas - We in Toronto have that problem. A development boom and short sighted city officials in the 80's
Andreas: Did anything interesting emerge out of the short sightedness?
webadmin: Andreas - Yea, the SONY/Mercedes necropolis is aply developed atop the former Reich Chancelery building.
webadmin: R I E C H
nell: AlainM, can we go back to your "virtual revolution" for quebec? you imply that we could persuade others of this idea via the media...
Andreas: I'm still here. I'm interested in what AlainM has to say.
nell: ah, moi aussi. mais il ne peut pas le dire tout de suite
Andreas: Well, Nell. What do you make of the idea of a virtual revolution?
nell: I lived in montreal for many years. I would much prefer to see the population persuaded by artists thinking about transborder cyber spaces than by politicians, that's for certain.
Andreas: Yes. Politicians are often such obstacles. Like over sized speed bumps with spikes.
nell: they have their own agendas which I often think are cleverly disguised psychoses
nell: sometimes not so disguised
Andreas: But, one concern I have about transborder cyberspaces and so forth is that they still limited to wealthy nations. So much of the world still has little access to the potential that cyberspace can offer. But I guess that is changing.
webadmin: I have head politicians describe Artists in such terms. I side with the artists.
nell: to cite Alain on this: with globalization and virtuality, we could strive for the affirmation of identity in a virtual construct.
Andreas: But what does that mean for "real" people?
nell: I would take it to mean that culture and place and identity can be communicated to people every/anywhere, if the means are available
Andreas: I see. By the way what was the name of the book he cited. I'd like to make a note of it?
Andreas: He being Alain
nell: McKenzie Wark (Australian), Virtual Geography (or plural)
webadmin: The means certainly are. Is there interest? Netneadedness moves down the scale when you have to scurry for food & shelter.
webadmin: I mean there are some issues that we must overcome first.
Andreas: Thanks. But is the communication of culture, place and identity enough? What about the lived experiences of such things?
Andreas: Webadmin. Or scurrying to avoid bullets.
webadmin: Webadmin == Erlich, Robert T.
nell: this is sheer speculation, in relation to either Alain's ideas or the book just cited, but perhaps the contention is that gradually everyone gets connected, gradually the nature of that connection becomes adequate to convey the experience of place. whoo boy, sounds techno-utopic doesn't it?
webadmin: Yes, I believe the places where that is an issue have had the misfortune to be on the wrong end of a ballance sheet. There is no physical reason for such things.
webadmin: Techno-utopic... Dreams from the age of Steam.
Andreas: Its also interesting to note who "easily" (or at least suddenly) such connections can happen.
Andreas: Meaning that its always possible to pencil in additions to the balance sheet.
webadmin: Electronics is not that much ahead of Steam. In fact, Maxwell understood electricity before Claussius Thermodynamics.
nell: it would be great to be speaking with Olu Oguibe on these topics, who says that his "true" country is now a "virtual" country, Biafra
Andreas: I wonder if physical calamities such as wars and environmental disasters will push humanity further into the virtual or vice versa?
nell: perhaps he'll join in tomorrow. I feel that it's hard to discuss the end of geography from a north american perspective right now, we're not threatened in any way that approaches other parts of the world
Andreas: By vice versa I think I meant into the physical realm, the realm of basic survival.
webadmin: Do we lose the will to experience? To struggle?
nell: the will to struggle. I don't think of struggle as "necessary" but imposed by conditions outside us.
Andreas: Nell. No, you are right. From my limited travels, I become acutely aware of that.
webadmin: Nell - Not in terms of borders. What about other, less physical identity?
Andreas: Nell. My last comment was in reference to what you said about Olu.
nell: so does that make north americans, with the exception of mexico one would have to say, a complacent bunch of geographically smug technofuturists?
Andreas: No. That's not what I meant at all.
webadmin: "complacent bunch of geographically smug technofuturists?"
webadmin: Wow!
nell: my brain has gone into overdrive...
webadmin: I believe North American are generally complacent, and self absorbed.
nell: Alain is not here anymore, and we didn't see him go.
webadmin: To many people, there exists nothing outside the Americas, North, particularly.
nell: yes, self-absorbed too. we'll have to work that into the longer description and start spreading it around as a kind of motto. whadda ya think?
Andreas: Life as an island.
webadmin: It is revealing to contrast European or Asian Media to American.
Andreas: You should m ake it into an acronym.
nell: Andreas, go for it.
nell: robert, please elaborate
Andreas: Well, CBOGMT is a start. But that's not very saleable is it?
nell: it's a little awkward, yes
webadmin: The "Economist", has many editions. I had the experience of putting a North American Edition beside a European (not UK) edition
nell: and...?
webadmin: As a UK publication, they tailor the issues for each intended market. The European (and the UK) edition had more content
Andreas: Watching CNN is also revealing. You can really tell which segments are programmed in the US or in Europe, for instance.
webadmin: concerning conditions outside their economic zone. The North American edition, not so. Newspapers have the same situation.
nell: well if the north american edition is american, which I assume it is, then that doesn't surprise me at all.
webadmin: Yes, the US views the rest of the world in overtly colonial terms.
nell: the US suffers from its geographical vastness, in the sense of navel-gazing. can't see past its own bulk.
Andreas: Or as possible travel destinations. Do you think that Canadians are also preoccupied with their navels?
webadmin: I prefer not to say. (reserve of the cynic)
Andreas: Cynicism, I think, is distinctly Canadian.
nell: cynicism, and irony. shall we part on that note?
nell: thansk for the wonderful chat.
Log file closed at: 11/14/97 4:02:35 PM
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